MrCanadian

I had a recent email debate with someone who cut off communication (not surprised). Mostly about Paul’s letters and damnation to hell, etc. NaughtyMice (NM) is pretty willing to accept that the bible is not 100% accurate and god inspired and is subject to the writers personal opinion. Though i would share it and get some feedback!

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NM: We must discern what is the overall message & then how we reconcile what appears to be contradictory with Pauls writings.”

MrC: Yes, and that is what I am trying to do, but I still haven’t seen any arguments that tells me that my observations are wrong.. other than “context” and “time period” warnings. How would you “reconcile what appears to be contradictory” in this case?

NM: we must always be aware of the composition of the Bible and how this was devised . Paul’s letters I think are a valuable inclusions but all to often Paul’s own statements & the fact that these were letters directed to a specific body are forgotten . Which in turn makes it appear that Paul’s letters are gospel ^^ This isn’t always the case , as they are quite obviously not addressed to us . Likewise I’ll reiterate as it’s an important point no matter what perspective , that Paul doest state at times it’s not God’s express will but his own judgment call .

MrC: Letters in the bible were chosen from the thousands available… not to mention many more were destroyed, why were they chosen to be a part of this book, and how? Why are Paul’s letters being given so much “airtime”, when a lot of his comments don’t apply to us, and only create confusion to the masses? Why are messages to ‘”specific bodies” being taught to children and messing their minds up? Why should it be considered so important that Paul reiterate time and time again that. For example, women are inferior, without warning that it is to a specific populous (which I don’t see any mention of mind you)?

NM: Paul is addressing a -specific- body , it’s a letter to specific people . Like the Jew references, the letter specified who those people are the -simple- , and to avoid mark those who -cause divisions & offences- . Your interpretation that Paul is giving a general edict to all Christianity , to avoid everything which doesn’t call itself Christian , is purely construed . And clearly wrong by other letters which give advice in how to interact with people who are not Christian.

MrC: I understand, but I’m saying it doesn’t MATTER who he is addressing. He makes clear reference that he “want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.” And that “The God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet.” Are you saying what is evil is different to the “simple” than any other Christians? Or is he just misleading the “simple” because labeling something “evil” is much easier than trying to explain it. He is clearing implying those teaching contrary to the bible is wrong and evil. Why should this change between the simple Christians and the more intelligent Christians? Is it like the lies we tell kids when they ask a question that is too scientific to explain, so we make one up? It is also amusing that he calls god the “god of peace”, given gods rap sheet. Are you saying all “simple” Christians should view everything else as “Evil”? because this is what it is implying. Given the fact that quiet a number of Christians have very little knowledge of other faiths.. Wouldn’t most of them be considered “simple”? Sure, maybe those Christians who are not “simple”, don’t have to avoid other religions, but it still gives the impression that they are “evil”.

NM: no that isnt what Paul is implying . Paul has clearly -specified- who to * mark* & avoid . And who is it ? Everything which isn’t Christians ? Did Paul say that ? No , in fact Paul the expression * when in Rome * comes from Paul . Does this sound like total segregation ? Apparently not . Stop attempting to construe the text . You’re insistence is devoid of who is specified both as who it is addressed to & who the warning is about . It’s also ignoring the obvious that Paul gives advice on how to live an effective Christian life in Pagan environments .

MrC: OK then please tell me straight out, what is he telling them to avoid? Please tell me what is “good and innocent” and what is “evil” as he implies. Pagans? Muslims? Jews? Who? What does this “Satan” that will be crushed represent? Paul implies in the same book that all who disagree with him are wicked… but you already imply he was wrong in saying that. I’m still confused.. please tell me exactly what Paul is implying. What exactly is this “evil” that Paul talks about.

NM: Some of Paul’s ideas were not ( even today ) well received by the Jewish community . Things such as Grace’s um predominance over the written Law . The equality issue would have raised hell . And then the Gentiles being co-equals. In the climate of the times it’s an understatement to say these were controversial . This would be incredibly frustrating for the pro-Jewish factions . I guess you had to be there

MrC: I can see why. So are you saying he was proverbially speaking out of his ass in Galatians 1:8-9? Did he just say that to invoke fear into those who would think to question his views? Unless God inspired him to write this one verse, I don’t see how he would have the right to say this, other than exaggerating to get people to “fall in line”. So either God inspired him to write it, He was “guessing” again, or he was using it as a fear incentive for people to believe what he said.

NM: -many- of the instances ( or to that effect ) are understandable in light of the record humanity has marked itself with . But there are instances were the actions are obviously questionable. It’s for this reason that we must appreciate the full scope of God’s plan, that is for all these wrongs that are done in one human lifetime . The opportunity for eternal life in far better conditions is enabled, by God’s own personal sacrifice. We can see circumstances that are by all standards wrong, but these are compensated by infinite measures.”

MrC: what plan would that be? To sacrifice himself to himself for a mistake he himself made? I don’t see much sacrifice going on here. He inflicted much worse suffering than Jesus went though. The stuff he has caused make Jesus sufferings looking like a walk in the park. Not much of a sacrifice I can tell you. So he compensates the death of suffering to those who do not believe, with rewards to those who do?? I am talking about Numbers 31. “Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins.

Knowledge Debate


NM: Social or environmental conditions mould us our cognitive perspectives. To a degree ( as to which degree who can say ) that is true . And truly we can assume that God will recognize these elements .”

MrC: So are you saying God rewards ignorance? Because I was born in a society where I was exposed to your religion, but didn’t except it, that I will be damned? But a person who was fortunate enough not to hear about it, will get a free ticket? ? I will be damned because I think others of different faiths may be right as well. It is not my fault where I was born, or how my personality is structured. It’s not my fault that my brain doesn’t work that way… much the same way it isn’t someone “fault” if they are gay, or if they are schizophrenic. Who’s fault is it then, and why am I getting pushed for it? Where are you getting that he will assume this? As long as we are assuming how God thinks, can we also assume that he recognizes my points as well? Can you prove to me that Paul wrote these verses in that context? Would be interested to see the source. Well bad luck on my part being born in North America, where diversity is encouraged.

NM: did I say God rewards ignorance ? I said God wont judge a lack of knowledge due to given circumstances as “too bad guilty anyway”.

MrC: Will he send 4 billion people to hell, because they were raised, out of no fault of their own, into another belief system?

NM: How can they know any better? Hence with a distinct lack of knowledge how they be judged for not knowing any better? Thus the answer is no. The Bible explains this so implicitly it’s those which know better.

MrC: You state “-Knowledge- is the standard for judgment”. Would it be safe to assume that I am lacking knowledge in your religion because I don’t follow it? Even though I have researched it and posted about it… do I still lack the right kind of “knowledge”? Does everyone who disagrees with Christianity lack Knowledge, thus are not subject to judgment?

NM: Most can understand the point being made , that is , we’re in no position to judge others , especially on things as intangible as spirituality. The only thing it means is that knowledge is the standard for judgment. And I think most of us can understand that to be a fair system .

MrC: Hmm, I’m still see this as God rewarding ignorance. You say that those who never hear of Christianity, or might have heard it’s name once or twice, but never understood it, are not subject to judgment because of his ignorance, therefore gets a free ticket. However, if a person seeks out new cultures and exposes himself to Christianity, along with the multitude of other faiths, but does not convert to Christianity, is subject to a much harsher judgment? So the man who decides to open his mind to the world, but does not “accept Jesus” is more likely to be sent to this “oblivion” by this Devil character. Can you tell me where you are pulling this from in the Bible? Knowledge is a standard for Judgment in our school system too. If you Study, and show understanding you pass, if you sit at home and play computer games all day, remaining ignorant to the tests content, you fail. Are you saying God “standard” is the opposite? A man researches religion and cultures, finding peace with another religion other that Christianity will fail, but a man who stays in his hometown all his life, remaining closed to the world and it’s cultures, will be more likely to pass?

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: MrCanadian ]</p>

CX

What kind of feedback are you looking for?

MrCanadian

Any kind really I just am having a big problem with the ethics of Pauls letters and the whole "damnation" thing. The person i was talking to couldn't really quell many of my questions and just looking for other viewpoints

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hello, MrCanadian,

In general, I'd advise you to be very careful with these "7 Authentic Epistles of Paul" that all of our crooked NT scholars would like to see as authentic. They probably are not. In my view, they may preserve some stuff written by Paul, but there's also a lot of later interpolations there.

Check out what I have to say on this subject on my webpage,

<a href="http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm" target="_blank">http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm</a>

All the best,

Yuri.