Oolon Colluphid

Hi folks

Over on the BBC E/C board, long-time ignoramus Chris Groves posted this:

I was about to reply with “Would you care to point out a single muscle or nerve that’s present in the human face that is not present in chimpanzees?”, basing this on something I’ve heard Mr Darwin say more than once (there being no protein, bone, muscle etc that we don’t share). But before I post that, can anyone briefly confirm that this is true?

I suspect so, but equally, I've been wondering about this recently: is there no structural difference (ie 'more' or 'less' of something, but not extra bits) between chimps and ourselves, and the fantastically subtle control of lips and tongue that we use for speech (and indeed expressions) is just down to brain wiring, is it...? IOW, the human face is supposed to have X dozen muscles; do chimps have the same?

Cheers, DT

pz

As far as I know, there is no difference in identity, although there are obvious differences in degree of development.

You know this was the subject of a long-running argument between Richard Owen and Darwin's first pet canine, Thomas Huxley, I presume? Owen tried hard to find something "special" about human anatomy, and settled on the hippocampus minor. Huxley basically humiliated him in a public debate by demonstrating that there was no unique structure found only in humans, but not in apes, by showing that they. too, had the hippocampus minor.

Oolon Colluphid

Brilliant, thanks pz!

No, I’d not heard (or have long-since forgotten -- I sometimes feel like the kid in the Larson cartoon, putting his hand up and saying “please can I be excused, my brain is full” ) about the hippocampus minor / Huxley / Owen thing. But I shall look into it soon: I’m into hospital next Friday for an inguinal hernia op (great design!), so I’ve got 2 weeks of sitting around at home coming up, and the biographies of Huxley and Darwin by Desmond (& Moore) are nearing the top of my ‘to read’ pile...

Cheers, DT

pz

Those are good, but have you read Janet Browne's two-volume biography yet? Of them all, I think that's the best so far.

Oolon Colluphid

Thanks! I have seen some good reviews of those (the second volume's only just out IIRC). More for the Christmas list...

DT

Randy

I know a one protein that is expressed in humans and not in Chimps or Gorillas. It is a type I hair keratin, but of course we still have the pseudogene.

Langbein et al. Human type I hair keratin pseudogene phihHaA has functional orthologs in the chimpanzee and gorilla: evidence for recent inactivation of the human gene after the Pan-Homo divergence. Hum Genet. 2001 Jan;108(1):37-42.

Added in Edit: Do you suppose this means we devolved from chimpanzees through loss of information???
Randy

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Randy ]</p>

Claudia

I have recently read (book in French, "Aux Origines de l'Homme", under supervision of Pascal Picq, Tome 2) that in fact, chimps as some other apes or monkey do smile or laugh. At least they have facial expression which are quite similar, and can be interpreted as having the same bases than smile and laugh. Under thias interpretation, smile and laugh are two different expressions which do not have the same origin.

I suppose that it is something which is still controversial, but...

pz

I don't think any of this is at all controversial, and it's been around for a long time. Darwin wrote about the similarity of expressions between humans and other primates in <a href="http://human-nature.com/darwin/emotion/contents.htm" target="_blank">The Expression of Emotions in Man and Animals</a>, way back in 1872.

Grumpy

Humans may have "better" faces, but there are times I'd rather have a chimp's exquisite arm musculature, making it pound-for-pound much stronger than a human (but incapable of throwing overhand, IIRC).

Oolon Colluphid

Doubtless that is partly to do with better development of their muscles, but they are rather smaller than us, which means that their muscles' leverage is more effective. If you've ever struggled for control with a four-year-old, you'll know what I mean. See eg Christopher McGowan's Diatoms to Dinosaurs: The Size and Scale of Living Things for more on this fascinating topic .

Anyone know if that's right? I would say it isn't, because brachiation -- being able swing below a branch by your arms, and so be able to put your hand behind your head, or bowl overarm or serve in tennis -- is one of the more obvious characteristics we share with the great apes. Monkeys can't do it, but apes can. So I'd be surprised, but...

Cheers, DT