Ronin

Me too...I won't tell if you won't.

Muffinstuffer

I'm aware of this.

And this as well.

And point out just how much I fail when given the chance.

Of course it is fair. What is, in my opinion, not fair, is assuming that because the doctrine that I hold to is evidently 100% genocidal and intolerant, that I am as well, and attacking me personally on that assumption.

You mean you can't just say "Leave me alone or I'll plug you"?

As far as prayers go, I would pray to God instead. As far as money go, it's money. Not my religion. As far as swearing to Satan, I would not do that. But by the same token, atheists are not required to swear to God either. As far as 'suspiciously eyeing' one as some sort of untrustworthy liar goes, I can't really address that, in all honesty, because I don't believe that one must be a Christian to refrain from lying, and I haven't been in or observed a situation where this has occurred.

All other requirements being equal, what do you think? This is somewhat of a loaded question, considering that there are fundamental differences between what a Christian might support (or not support) in office, and what an atheist might support in office. I don't know too many atheists (for that matter, I don't know too many Christians in office OR atheists in office) whose views will line up 100% with those of an atheist, and vice versa. So I'm not sure that question can be answered.

Since I imply that I am not....what? Out to kill her?

As far as bypassing that part of the Christian doctrine....I'm sure there's quite a lot I could do that would seem to be supported by the Bible as being in violation of God's will.

Noxious to unbelievers, yes.

Avoiding a question, not knowing the answer, having to RESEARCH an answer, and simply choosing not to answer it because I have answered questions many times, are all different things. Feel free to point out the questions about my faith that I've 'avoided' and I'll answer them if I can, and write them down/research them and get back to you if I can't answer them immediately.

Muffinstuffer

I can't tell you of an openly atheist ANYTHING in America, mainly because I detest politics for the most part.

Muffinstuffer

Deal.

The Other Michael

Hello Sabine,

That might have some validity in a special-education class, where the ability to learn anything at all is considered a positive step.

But in the real world (or what seems to pass for it), sincerity often doesn't count as much as a rational evaluation of the actual evidence followed by the exclusion of "solutions" to the problem that draw on unsupportable non-facts. I don't want anything to do (professionally) with a hard working and sincere but incompetent physician/mechanic/engineer/accountant etc.

If I thought you or Muffinstuffer were special-education material, I might be willing to boost your grade with an "A for effort". However, I have higher expectations of you both, and so I expect to see reasoned replies based on the evidence that you have before you, and not "sincere" flights of fancy.

cheers,
Michael

Ronin

Then try not to get overly excited when someone engages you in a way you may not prefer.

Then do so.

Not when you fail, Muffinstuffer...when the dogma that is Christianity fails, which is so often.

I do my utmost not to reflect a personal attack on the person you are...rather, I consistently indicate via the divine edicts of Christianity that it is 100% genocidal and intolerant of non-believers.

How you or Sabine or any of the other Christians here reconcile the known doctrine of Hell or of Original Sin or of the cruelties found in the either the Old or New testament with that of what we humans know of love, compassion and understanding...is what has yet to be done.

The other superstitious stories of magic, miracles and myth can be for another day.

I could, I suppose...if I were a Christian cop.

What if the Satanists found out?

And they were really everything a Christian fears?

How would you feel and what would you do?


That is my opinion as well, however, would it be indicative of a fair and neutral government?

Would you feel the government, made up mostly of satanists, may not consider you a legitimate citizen or treat you fairly despite claims that they are?

Would you speak out in support of your view in the public forum?

When the oath to Satan is given as a standard, would you feel comfortable in a public forum to assert your view?

Would you feel ostracized or untrustworthy in the eyes of the jury made up of a society where a majority of Satanists reside?

I have.

George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

Where would the telling differences be for you, Muffinstuffer, regarding forming a more perfect union, establishing justice, ensuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare and securing the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity?

Or is it that which sets Christians apart, like their intolerance of lifestyle choice between consenting adults or their insistance that this is "One Nation Under God", that loads the question for you?

If so, then I understand...and you now, perhaps, see where I stand on this issue, having made my point indirectly in any event.

Yes...please don't appear so shocked. The doctrine is found within the Christian holy writ.

"seem to be supported by the Bible" is quite a dodge for many Christians when confronted with the exact doctrine that is supported by the Bible and your God's will.

That you are able to bypass parts of that doctrine only promotes a shining light of your humanity in direct conflict with Christianity.

That others are not is a more pressing matter.

It should be noxious to any truly loving, compassionate and understanding human beings.

An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere subservient household pets which they control.

That those who merely choose not to be sycophants to such a limited tyrant are so unjustly tortured and flayed for eternity...speaks more about the poisonous men who wrote the lame story and those that continue to follow it.

You've pointedly refused to answer me when I asked you where the loving atheist is consigned for eternity according the fable of your God.

I am a loving atheist father, husband and law enforcement officer...I have no faith in Jesus as a savior of any sort, decline to be reigned over by him or, more the case, his authoritative representations and rebuke the tyrannical myth of Yahweh as having anything to do with the common notion of love.

Tell me, where does your loving doctrine have me remain forever for these heinous crimes?

I await your answer.

Muffinstuffer

I'm in the process of resolving a huge problem with the Ga Dept of Revenue so I can't answer at length, but I can answer a bit.

If it appears I've dodged this question, I'm sorry. I didn't do so on purpose, at least not so far as I am aware. I do not know why you need ME to answer this question for you. You're 13 years older than I am, and appear to have all the answers to why one should not be a Christian, so answering this question should not be tough for you.

If this is avoiding the question, I'll be more than happy to actually say it, but as I'm fairly sure you're driving at a point, as you usually are, I'm also fairly sure you already know the answer.

Rhea

It may be illuminating for you to know that we actually do feel we know the answer form your bible. What we want to know, and don't yet, and why we want your answer, is whether you actually specifically acknowledge this and are happy with it.

Many Christians won't think about this and this saves them from admitting they don't really like it. Others think it is a Very Cool thing. Still others suffer from it. Wonder which one you are. That's why we await your answer.

Where are we going and what do you think about that?

Muffinstuffer

Ah. Now THAT is a completely different question. (Or two.)

Do I acknowledge it? Yes, I do.

Am I HAPPY with it? Of course not. I do not question it, but no one who is a human being - and believe it or not, Christians do fall within that group - LIKES thinking of pain and suffering and the like. I don't think it's 'very cool' or any of that. I just think it is the 'rule.' I'm quite sure that people here will disagree with me and tell me that I DO like thinking of pain or suffering, etc., but I do not think it is 'cool' or 'happy' or 'fun' or any of that.

So, as far as 'which one I am', I acknowledge it, and accept it, but NO ONE is 'happy' about it, and this includes me.

MY question to YOU would be....is this an umpteenth attempt to show me just how wrong it is and how genocidal and intolerant and so on and so forth it is? No offense is intended, but I hear/get that....hmm, pretty much every post. Again, I say (and yes I realize that this is in fact the religious board) that I did in fact come here for intellectual discussion, and while this does include religious discussion, if the vast majority of the discussions are going to amount to "You're wrong" and "Your doctrine is genocidal and intolerant" then it's not really worth my time to respond to those. The first, second, third and possibly fourth times, I picked up on it.

Tony

Muffinstuffer:
Dear MuffinStuffer,

Would you try to live your life as an "example" if you would be a non-religious person?

I don't try to live my life as an "example". Though, I would be happy if someone will take my life as an "example". I would think better about myself - I would have my own followers. Probably, I would start even my own theory, build me worshipping buildings and monuments of me, collect my followers' money, pretend that I help poor people, get government financial help, change Pledge (I'll add "under me"), get a lot of coverage in media, brainwash kids (so they become my followers!), and finally - I'll fulfill the dream of Brain (mouse) - I'll take over the world!!!

Oops!

Sorry...

Kind of lost it...



Was I civil enough?