FarSeeker

"In 1991, the government issued Document 6, which called for a crackdown against unregistered religious groups and reaffirmed its goal of creating a 'materialistic,' 'scientific,' and atheistic society."
_Religious Freedom in the World: A Global Report on Freedom and Persecution_, ed. Paul Marshall, 2000, Freedom House.

Which just goes to show how Atheist minorities don't like to share governing powers. We can see what such a minority can do; just think what DP’s MAJORITY (with Christians “marginalized&#8221 would do. No doubt Stalin and the others would be in awe of vous. Next, China outnumbers the population of all other countries (about 4 to 1 compared to the U.S.), so it could be a lower percentage in yet a higher number in China. So, if the populations are rounded off, China at 1 billion (with 1/3 religious just for example), and the US at 0.250 billion (with 9/10 religious), then China could have 333 million and the US 225 million religious people.

So you claim. But we'll come back to this later. BTW, Isn’t Tibet’s leader a “religious fanatic”?


“[S]upport of the Methodists for the Nationalists,” is NOT well known, but is only an unsubstantiated claim. But please notice how you attribute only those who oppose your POV as representing Christianity. As I said, the support given to the Nationalists by the Methodists and the Catholics is more likely related to political factors than Christian ones. If your hatred for Christians is common in your movement, I can understand how those to denominations distrust it. Also, my reading of History is that the Catholics tend to be very conservative to the point of nailing themselves to the status quo, and I have no info about your claims about the Methodists.

Hiding things by burying something in plain sight is common to both lawyers and politicians (and well spoofed in “So Long And Thanks for All the Fish&#8221

Then you know nothing of the Bible, for that statement is an admission of ignorance. Your ignorance important to you, that way you can demonize Christianity with your prejudice and bigotry. The Bible speaks for itself. Let us look at the logic of your statement: “In any case, whether [Hitler was Christian] or not is irrelevant; [he was an Evolutionist] and that is all that counts.” Or: “In any case, whether [Stalin was Marxist] or not is irrelevant; [he was an Atheist] and that is all that counts.”

Technically speaking, I would speak out against democracy, as did most of the “Founding Fathers” of the United States. Democracies tend to self-destruct. What we have in the US is a “Constitutional Republic,” which is what those very Founders tended to call it.


Who said anything about organizations? I was asking you to help INDIVIDUALS who have suffered. But if you don’t think people deserve to live and be free because they belong to an organization you despise, then I guess we can all see what your “Humanism” really is. As you say below, “the vast majority of the home Churches in China are syncretic,” so you know you would NOT be helping very many Catholics. This is just a dodge to excuse you from being a humanitarian.


And yet you claim to have freed some of these “authoritarian,” morally “inhuman,” contemptuous of freedom, democracy and personal choice individuals from jail. Were you lying, or just admitting to a temporary madness?


I know of your irrational contempt, bias, prejudice and bigotry towards Christianity; but do you absolutely need to continue drowning me in it?

[QUOTE]Further, as I have discussed elsewhere -- and these are old arguments -- the Christian Churches -- not just the Catholics -- are overjoyed by the persecution. This gives their Churches an excellent anti-government cachet, a chance to seek funds and adherents for "the beleaguered Churches in ________," rising access to government backing in the States, and many other fringe benefits. For example, doctrinal splintering, common in peacetime, is rarer in such situations, because the Churches fear to leave the main organization and strike out on their own against the government. (You might pause to consider that the vast majority of the home Churches in China are syncretic in nature). The odd result of persecution is that the government enforces Church unity and doctrine! Nope, sorry, the Christian Churches love it when persecution strikes. If you like, I'll dig up the article I read last year in Christianity Today, when veteran missionaries wax lyrical about the good old days of the Cultural Revolution.

One only has to look at the actual facts. In Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macao, where the Churches are undisturbed, the Christian Churches are moribund and squabbling, and most of the population is irreligious. By contrast, the Churches are booming in China, and the population is more religious than in the west. Ditto for Vietnam, whose recent White Paper admitted that the policy of suppressing Christianity was only stimulating its growth. Sorry, Farseek, but they are lapping up the persecution, and seek to promote and provoke it even more.

I feel terrible for the poor guys in the trenches who are abused by the Communists and exploited by the Churches. I think that is an outrage against humanity. The Churches sending missionaries into China is morally equivalent to a person who sends a young woman to the home of a serial rapist. However, I can't muster much sympathy for higher-ups who, if released, would come to Taiwan and agitate against freedom and democracy here . The only difference in temperament between your Catholic biship and Chiang Tze-min is that Chiang still commands temporal power. It is not morality that restrains the Church, but lack of power...

Vorkosigan [QUOTE]

Yes, churches do tend to hold together tighter under persecution. But is this important? Only that your flippant reply about not caring what “two authoritarian systems” do to each other means you don’t care that the churches get stronger in China. On the other hand, how would your organization hold together under persecution? All you Atheists should take note: We Christians have as our Teacher – our King – an individual who chose not to fight back against His persecutors, and when He was hung out to die, said “forgive them, for they know not what they do.” THAT IS OUR EXAMPLE DP, not the strawman you have been putting up.

Your prejudice tells you that they are against freedom, not your knowledge, but then that is all you have, not some supreme rationalism, but merely rationalizations.

You seem to be under a false impression that I am Catholic.

FarSeeker

No, Thomas, I am not arguing with you, just as you are not arguing with me. You are arguing with someone that you wish to demonize and insult. Christianity is what Jesus taught. Nowhere in His teachings can you find justification for your demonization of Christianity.

On the other hand, Atheism offers nothing but a vacuum, which mankind tries to fill with whatever they think.* You claim to use some miracle cure-all you call “rationalism”, yet you cannot prove that Stalin was wrong anymore than you can prove Wizardry wrong. Wiz used his rationality to reach a conclusion that disputes yours. You claim yours is right; Wiz claims “his” is right. If you cannot come to a rational agreement, I don’t have to address your argument because Wiz already did and found it false.

On the other hand, I could point to Atheists who have accepted Jesus as their Savoir, and leave it as that. You will treat me with the same respect you give Wiz, or as Spyder Robinson says, “welcome to the world.”

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

David M. Payne

Gad zooks, the black knight has arisen yet again! What shall I do? I know, I'll smite him with <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236" target="_blank">The Story of Bob!</a> Seriously FS, I believe the reason that communists are atheists has to do mainly with two things:
1) they are materialists, which means they believe in that which is material and observable, and God doesn’t fit into that category. (A) Materialism, in philosophy, doctrine that all existence is resolvable into matter or into an attribute or effect of matter. According to this doctrine, matter is the ultimate reality, and the phenomenon of consciousness is explained by physiochemical changes in the nervous system. Reference; MS Encarta. (B)German political philosopher Karl Marx applied the concept of dialectic to social and economic processes. Marx's so-called dialectical materialism, frequently considered to be a revision of the Hegelian system, asserts that ideas can arise only as a result of a material condition. Reference; MS Encarta
2) They recognize that all religions are after the same thing they are and don't want to share it. It being, "The Usual" Money, Power and Influence. Reference; <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236" target="_blank">"The Story of Bob."</a>

David

Rousseau_CHN

I read somewhere that God is the greatest murderer.

True, but why list the Great Flood (Noah) alone?

Feeble as I am, I charged God with the murder of innocent Egyptian children. Innocent Egyptian children whose only fault were being first born children.

I charged God with the murder of the people of Sodom and Gommorah. He asked some stupid fellow to find at least one good person. How lazy can he be! I am sure that there was at least one good person in those places. One mother who was into prostitution so that she could feed her child. One child who was playing...one father who was toiling...one gambler...one sinner...They were all good people...and even if they weren't...they were still people...people who have the ability to change.

And to this Sodom incident...I again charge God with theft...the greatest theft of all. Ordinary thief steals worthless things...God steals hopes.

I charged God with rape of Mary, mother of Christ. Satutory rape. Mary was a mindless fool, and God took advantage of her.

I charge God!

David M. Payne

Welcome to the Secular Web Rousseau! Good points, you may also enjoy <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236" target="_blank">The Story of Bob.</a> We look forward to your input here.

David

Jack the Bodiless

Farseeker:
I see that you STILL haven't quite grasped the fact that "communists" are a very small subset of "atheists" (actually they're not a subset at all: communists aren't necessarily atheists).

Another nation to add to your list of repressive atheist dictatorships: New Zealand. The Prime Minister is an atheist.

But, of course, New Zealand is a democracy. As are MOST of the nations where atheists are common (like all of Europe, for instance).

So your "which just goes to show how Atheist minorities don't like to share governing powers" needs to be refined as follows:

"In those nations where Atheist minorities don't like to share governing powers, Atheist minorities don't like to share governing powers".

Well, duh...

David M. Payne

Thanks for stepping in and giving us a hand Jack, I didn't know how many more times I could keep cutting off this guys arms and legs, only to see them miraculously reattach themselves yet again, before I ran out of gas.

OK I'm rested, where is my terrible swift sword of reason and logic, ah here it is! Once more I'm ready to go into the breach.

Next?

David

Bill Snedden

Prove it. Oh, yes, and do so without use of the senses.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]</p>

Bill Snedden

The true temporal and spiritual leader of Tibet is HH Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Llama. Religious he certainly is, but by no stretch of the imagination could this man be called a fanatic.

Regards,

Bill Snedden