Ether

How can the belief on something that cannot be proven, seen or felt be so important? How can this have such a big influece over the world around us?

In my opinion God is whatever man wants it to be. God has no power other than what man allows him to have. We can look back an see that people believed in different Gods and each God had his/her power (rain, the moon, the sun,etc.) But what happened to those Gods as mankind started to learn about the world and space? They simply started to disapear and lost all form of credibility.

The same can be said about the Christian God. The only “adventage” he has is that people keep “adding” features to his already extensive arsenal of abilities. In the Bible God thinks the earth is flat, that he controls the rain, that he controls disease, birth, death and many other things. But how many of these are still on his side and not on man’s side? I think that none of them remain.

The only question that remains is what started Evolution or the Big Bang.

Evolution is a proven fact that completely displaces Creation. Even with something so small like the fact that we are born, we grow and then we die is enough to take it seriously. Everything changes over time and that’s what evolution is about. We don’t see people forming from dusk do we?

The big problem with Creration is that as with God is that people will add anything to it. And since God is omnieverything it is possible.

But we can apply the same question to God. What started him? Where did he came form? I am very confident to think that he is from the small universe that is between our ears.

Now we have Christians who accept evolution yet still belive in God. This is a very contradictory statement given the fact that God created man in his image. But if you accept evolution and still insist that God created man then this means that the first state of evolution was God’s image? To what “image” has man evolved since then?

Even if you say that we are made in God’s image not psychical but psicological there is still a problem. Why there are so many diferent cultures? Why are we able to oppose his doctrine? Why we can’t all get along?

Now without moving away from the topic. I would like to know what gives the Christian God the authority over all other Gods and mankind? Is it because there must be a God for people to belive in be him real or not?

Don’t get me wrong I have no problem with people that chosse to follow the Christian God. It is their belief not mine and if they respect me it is fine. The only problem I have with them is that they think they have the right to do what ever they want in God’s name and that they have authority over all things. There are some people (like me) who just don’t find anything in Christianity.

This is what leads to war. Intolerance, racism, religious opression, etc. You all should be more tolerant and stop that divine mission” you think you have to convert everyone to your religion. Stop using Satan as a tool/weapon to convert people. I assure you that God doesn’t apreciates that and he will must likely send you to hell and not the one you converted or didn’t convert.

If you find whatever fills your hole in Christianity that’s fine but other people like to do something else when they are say depressed, angry, happy, etc. If you like to pray or thank God that’s fine I like to be proud of my self when I acomplish something and when I don’t I think about whant happened and try to get something possitive out of it.

Some people do, some people don’t and that must be respected.

Have a Good Day

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ether ]</p>

critical thinking made ez

Only if one believes in the literal words in the Bible. If on the other hand God created the world just starting with the Big Bang and had all the basic properties of matter preprogrammed to form everything since, the argument you present is invalid.

It is man who gives God authority, not God. If there is no interference from a God, then the authority rests with men, right? We get to choose what we call him, what his attributes must be, on and on. We can even change it every few hundred or thousand years. Yet there could still be a God which allows man to wonder about him/her.


Actually, on planet earth, the men with the most power gets to do whatever they want. Just because they hold a flag with God's name on it really means nothing. God is not killing, raping, etc. It is man. He could also be doing the same thing under the flag of a skull and cross bones. So the issue is not God, that you are complaining about, it is the natural behavior of man.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]</p>

The Dark Lord

It's not 'god' that has an influence over the world, organised religion has an influence over the world. 'God' influences organised religions.

There is a theory of a membrane colliding with another membrane, causing a Big Bang, if you will. It's very confusing, and I don't remember all of the details, but the theory also states that the membranes will rebound, and, after awhile, collide again, causing another big bang.

Heh. Including the pope.

I think it's a better arguement to say that it is contradictory for a fundie to accept evolution. A Christian believes that Jeezus was the saviour, and, as far as I'm concerned, they can still accept evolution.

The church.

Belief in god is not important. It is merely a crutch for organised religion. These religions imply that you need god by making you fear about your life after death. Men don't need god.

"They promise you pie in the sky when you die so you'll eat their shit now."

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: The Dark Lord ]</p>

free12thinker

Religion and God are so important to theists because theists believe they are so important. And these theists who believe they are so important are not a) strong enough b) intelligent enough OR c) motivated enough to make religion less important. It's easier to follow the crowd. It's easier to provide outlandish explanations with no possibility to refute. It's easier to buy the 'Jesus Loves Us' thingamabob when we're feeling down.

I think atheists find it important to analyze because atheists don't buy the unreal, and frankly, they don't understand how everyone else can. They recognize the death toll that religion has brought. They see the low plausibility of a God (any god) existing, and it's somewhat frightening to put it all into perspective, especially when the impact of believing in such an unplausible but influential deity can be so grave.

I was having an identical conversation to this, when I was asking a co-worker of mine (who's a lawyer--and Christian), what he would do (knowing that I'm atheist) if he were a judge and I had to take the stand. I would have my hand on the bible, reciting the 'So help me God' thing, but he would know I didn't believe in God. What kind of a deal would he make of it? Would he still trust my word, even though my oath had an obvious hole in it? This is a good question to raise, but I'll raise it in a separate topic.

Cheers.

RJS

Do you include Einstein under a, b, or c, or all of them.

free12thinker

Is it your impression that Einstein was a theist? I think he'd disagree with you.

Einstein quotes -
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

RJS

You dont have to believe in a "personal" God to be a theist.

free12thinker

Fair enough. But do you think Einstein was a theist? I'm just curious.

Besides this however, if he didn't believe in a personal god and didn't rely on religion in his life, than he doesn't apply to my A, B, C.

RJS

I have read both sides of the argument (including the quotes you posted). I am not sure of the answer. If I had to guess, he was puzzled (frustrated?) as to what caused everything in the first place - and came to the conclusion that it was inexplicable, and could have resulted from a higher being.

PS - start a new thread discussing it. I did a search prior to my first remark, and didnt find anything previously.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

sidewinder

True, but why does it matter to you? According to Christianity, he's frying in the fires of Hell for eternity..."where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."