notMichaelJackson

As far as I know, Christians Unite allows non-Christian participation. Faithforum also allows this.

HelenM

It's another expression for conversion, or 'receiving Jesus as personal Savior', or 'coming to Christ' etc.

Whether you can be born again more than once, whether it happens by baptism and whether it increases merit depends on what one believes about conversion.

At my church they teach that baptism visually symbolises being born again, once someone has been, rather than causing it.

The phrase comes from John chapter 3 in the New Testament:

John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

(Please excuse the long quote for the sake of context)

Helen

DMB

Thanks, Helen.

Doctor X

Helen:

The irony is that the phrase is a mistranslation. The term is "born from above"--anothen--ανωθεν--. Similarly, Junior, in Jn 8.23, chastizes the Pharises, "'You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.'" The contrasting terms "from below"--ek kato--εκ κατω and "from above"--ek ano--εκ ανω underscore the inherent distinction between Jesus and the Pharisees.

This is a complex pun. The word is translated as "from above"--θεν places it in the ablative--in all texts other than in Jn. What Jn makes distinct is that those who are "in" were predestined--born from above--and those who are not are not. Nicodemus might be a nice guy, but he will not make it. Nicodemus fixates on the birth and misses the "deeper" meaning--common tactic in Jn--there is always a hidden agenda. Those "chosen" "discover" their true nature through Junior's teachings--such as the blind man or the Samaritan.

This is polemic. It is a way of demonstrating distinction between Jn's audience and whomever rivals they have--even "nice groups." Other groups may preach a similar teaching, may be nice people--like Nicodemus--but they are destined to hellfire and stuff!

How ironic . . . it has been misused as a "chance for salvation" to become, ultimately, a way of denying salvation.

--J.D.

Reference:

Herbert Weir Smyth. Greek Grammer. Harvard University Press, 1984, ¶ 342.

lunachick

That's freakin' hilarious!!


Incidentally, I was also disallowed membership to BaptistBoard, and all I did was state that my religion was "peace".

HelenM

Doctor X:

I was aware that the phrase can also be translated "born from above". I don't find much irony in that myself although I take your point that that translation ties it into other passages.

For what it's worth I expect you know that later in the same gospel (chapter 19) Nicodemus is named as one of the two followers helping to prepare and bury Jesus (in chapter 19) - so, according to this gospel, in spite of his lack of knowledge in chapter 3, he came to sufficient understanding and faith at some point.

If you want to discuss the meaning/interpretation of John's gospel then I think it would be best to do it in a separate thread, out of courtesy to the originator of this one.

Helen

p.s. my favorite 'Junior' passage is Matthew 22:41-45. "How on earth can someone's son - Junior - also be their Lord?" Well, how indeed

p.p.s. if the Junior reference was not to do with your specific comments but simply your preferred designation then, never mind

Doctor X

Helen:

No intention to "hijack" just that I find the exortation to a mistranslation most ironic indeed.

The other relevance is that Jn preaches a gospel of exclusion . . . which the other writers do as well! They just have different rationals. In all, they condemn the "in" group--disciples--Mk has to repeat the "loaves 'n fishies" miracle, and they still do not get it. Junior walks on water in Mk to avoid them!

Now to bring it back to the topic . . . I am rereading a book for pleasure and happened up this passage which, if you replace the name of the cult with anyother, seems to fit.

Alex Heard, Apocalypse Pretty Soon: Travels in End-Time America. New York: Doubleday, 1999.

I believe it also fits for the various groups way back when.

--J.D.

HelenM

But it was an explanation, not an exhortation. Whether it's a mistranslation is irrelevant to whether the expression 'born again' was derived from that passage, which I believe it was.

But that doesn't fit Christianity well at all, despite what you said. The gospels purport to be about an actual living breathing human being, not an 'intense personal spiritual experience'.

Helen

Doctor X

Helen:

No, no, not your exhortation, the general fundamentalist exhortation.

Now:

On the contrary, early Christianity and current sects do fit the passage quite well. As for "living human" Junior was long dead by the time of the composition of the Synoptics.

Granted, early Christians may not have built survival pods . . . you can only take an analogy so far.

--J.D.

Lonely_Road_Of_Faith

Personally I'm not an Atheist, I'm a Christian,,,a friend of mine from another board sent me a link to baptistboard.com,,,LOL what exciting topics "Jack Chick is a Prophet" or "Do Catholics Go to Hell" or "Women wearing pants in church."

Safe to say, they wouldn't like me, I'm pretty liberal, I think for myself, and I don't care that my girlfriend wears pants to church.

I'd like to see what they'd say if I tried to sign up and then used my nickname "Little Devil" as a username.

hehehehe.

Craig