Vorkosigan

And how many of these work in the Chinese government? How many were in the chain of command that ordered the '89 Massacre?

We've already touched on this. The Communist Party opposes Christianity because it is COmmunist, not because it is atheist. Any competing system of thought is dangerous, especially a fellow authoritarian one. The Communists also oppose re-instating the Emperor, Qi-gong groups, atheists who are not Communists, and others who may upset their control.

They also have historical reasons, since religion has been throughout Chinese history a rallying point for opposition to the status quo.

You contradict yourself; why are you putting your son in the hands of the very Christian learders you want to leave in jail?

The school is run by four missionary groups, who hate each other more than they hate outsiders. The Christianity they offer is milquetoast and the education is good. We may yet take my son out, because the school is so unloving, and the Christian missionary kids form cliques that bully other students.

Not to mention the anti-science attitude of those teachers other Atheists have claimed on this thread, your giving him a bad education, are you that bad a father?

What anti-science attitude? My son's second grade teacher has pretty much the same attitudes I do, except he is a theistic evolutionist. I have no objection.

Any one who acts contrary to the teachings of Jesus the Christ is not acting as a Christian, but as a fallen sinner. Maybe you can think of it as DP's idea that the rationalism of Stalin does not represent "true rationality".

This is just the old True Scotsman Fallacy. As far as I know, the Methodists and Catholics who supported the KMT and opposed democracy here are all Christians. Just as the presybeterians who supported the democracy movement are.

You won't support the human rights of imprisoned Christians in China because they MAY NOT support your ideas. Have I got that right?

Wrong. I support the human rights of everyone. I don't see why I should work to get Catholic Clerics out of prison. The two are not in opposition, since the Catholic Church has consistently opposed human rights. Levering clerics out of prison is not an act that will advance human rights in China or Taiwan, since it would merely be substituting one authority system for another. Since I do support human rights, I oppose that Church. Simple as that. I don't care if other people work to get imprisoned clerics out of jail, but there are more urgent things for me to do to advance human rights here.

So, as a Sunday school teacher, if I was to march for a Republic (Democracy is not a viable government, ask the US Founding Fathers) in your country, and get arrested, you would not support my Human rights because I disagree with you?

Wrong again. I am already on record as working to get Christians out of prison here in Taiwan. So why are you even asking me this stupid question?

I guess Orwell was right in his description of you ideas: some people are more equal than others.

Orwell was criticizing Christian Britain; the Ministry of Truth is the BBC. Don't you know anything at all?

Vorkosigan

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

David M. Payne

Bumped for the Rotten Tomatoes forum.

David

hal9000

this bump is for our friends at rotten tomatoes. Here is a link to it. is god the biggest mass murderer of all time? It's some fun there, some of you should drop in, DP's badly outnumbered there and could use some help.

FarSeeker

Me thinketh you prostestm too much.

I mean its a nice try -- attempting to call Marxism a religion, but it just doesn't hold up. To claim this point as true you would have to cantradict the words of Paul Kurtz and Arthur C. Clarke.

BRB

Keith Russell

Greetings:

One can define 'religion' in such a way that Marxism is a religion.

But, one can define religion in other ways, too...

Keith.

David M. Payne

I don't call Marxism a religion, I said it acts like a religion. If we look at Marxism and Fascism we see that they have one thing in common with the Abrahamic religions, an authoritarian structure. As I have said before, I don't think it is a coincidence that these two social structures follow the pattern of religious authoritarian movements. The authors of these doctrines saw that the God/religion concept was very effective in getting its followers to do pretty much what ever the religious leadership told them to do. They just copied much of the structure of religion, replaced God with themselves, and viola, they had their followers responding to their orders just like religious followers follow the orders of their leaders.

You know FS, all three religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are authoritarian in structure, always have been, they have no choice in the matter. And therein lays the problem. It isn't so much the belief in a God that is the problem with the Abrahamic religions, it is that their very foundation of beliefs rests on an authoritarian dogma. Who is the ultimate authority in all three religions? God. What is the limit of his authority? None that I know of. Where is this God? Who knows, but not here to wield his authority, that’s for sure. So in all of humanities recorded history who has actually wielded religious power in the name of God? Humans. We have had humanity in control of religion all along, and absent of a God's direct intervention, we always will, won't we? Humans have always been in control of all religions. Humanity has always been the dominant being of this planet, at least as far back as our recorded history is concerned. This belief in God/religion sets up people to acept the idea that some authoritarian belief is good, and in fact necessary for our best interest. But this depends on the belief that God is in control of everything. There is no persuasive scientific proof of a God ever existing. Time to accept this reality and deal with it, humanity is in charge, and always has been on this planet.
So I look forward to the day when this fairy tale God no longer enslaves so many people and humanist secular beliefs has finally pushed the authoritarian God/religion power structure into the dust bin of history. There is no need to do more that expose religion for the scam it is, and it will just fade away, as it has done in much of Europe and other parts of the world.

David


"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

FarSeeker

Yeeesss, that is true.
One can likewise define Atheism - or the beliefs developed from it - as religion(s) too. Pual Kurtz has call such actions as "definition mongering."

The point is, you cannot define Marxism as a religion unless you are willing to accept that the beliefs you have based on Atheism, are also a religion. You can't claim one Atheist system of belief is a religion, but another isn't -- that is speacial pleading.

David M. Payne

Back to you FS.


David

God and religion, the oldest most successful scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!

FarSeeker

DP seems to be repeating himself.

Long ago, it was recommended that I go back and review the early post in this thread, so I have.
DP’s original post can be found in it entirety on the first page of this thread, but the cogent parts are here with my replies:

DP, posted February 14, 2002 09:36 PM [QUOTE]
[B] FS response:
If you look over other threads you will find DP is in a “theists are a threat” rut. Remember the concept of “The Big Lie,” - if you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it? You should remember that method of verbal manipulation helped Hitler* goad many Germans to commit atrocities when he spoke about how Jews were a threat. DP is attempting to follow that path, but with Christians as the target this time (it gets more mileage).

1) Look at DP’s statements flipped. If DP’s pronouncements are accurate, then so are these statements:
“We hear the anguished denunciations that Marxists, fearless of justice, don’t represent the ‘true Atheism’. Really.”
Or:
“Though there are examples of good moral teachings to be found in Atheist books, there are also teachings found in them that can lead right to the acts perpetrated on us by the Castro’s and Deng’s of the world and the other fundamentalist followers of the Atheistic religions.”

And who does DP compare Christians to? The “neo-nazi Christian right.” Of course, he then has the audacity to object when I compare Atheists to Marxists, which just shows the double standard with which Atheists like to operate. (Marxists are a subset of Atheists who, in their skepticism, rationalism and free-thinking, have conclude that they’re right, which is not so different from DP. Whether they or DP are right is a question that seemingly can’t be answer.)

FS: DP has talked about the judgement of God in the Bible without careful consideration. First and easiest, the plants and animals killed in the Flood are irrelevant just as they are when Atheists eat them. As they are not sentient, their deaths are no more relevant here than that of an ant DP steps on. Or look at it from another Atheist’s POV: someone claimed it is alright to murder the unborn babies because, “Few to no people will miss the victim.” So why isn’t it valid to say that no one will miss those plants and animals. It’s a common double-standard one this forum. In his smug superiority complex, DP does not seem able to grasp that concept.

As for children drowned, we read that Noah took only his wife, his sons and his son’s wives with him on the ark. In other word, there were “underage” no children. It would be a simple matter for God to control births, and cause the Flood at a time when there were no children under-age. Until a poster on this thread can provide a reasonable argument to counter this point, the accusations are groundless.

*** I just see an incredible amount of hypocrisy from Atheists here. They condemn God for these judgments and call Him and the Jews blood-thirsty, but turn a blind eye to the murder occurring around the world today. They can’t do anything about what happen thousands of years ago in Egypt, but could do something now, yet they don’t. No protests, no accusations of “murderer!” and no cries of crimes against humanity. Once again, Marxists get favored status among Atheists on this forum; it makes you wonder about their claim to rationalism. A recent “march” in Washington D.C. was bogus; if they really cared about anything, they then would have conducted their march in front of the Chinese Embassy.

One can interpret Atheism any way one wants to, because there will be no intervention coming directly from other Atheists on this, will there?

There hasn’t been any intervention? Talk about Argumentum ad ignorantum!

We already possess weapons of mass destruction, DP. Nothing has happened as you said it would. The only thing preventing the Atheist leaders of Marxist countries from using every means at their disposal to conqueror the world is the fact that we have them. Say what you will DP, but you can’t back it up! All you do is hurl insults and ridicule.

God is justified in carrying out judgment.

What fable do you speak of? The ones where Athesits claim to be able to stop evil? Or the ones where Atheists deny that Christians have ever built hospitals? The ones were Atheists claim to be “Humanist,” but find no problem in wishing for the deaths of millions of people in a catastrophe just so they can come out the singular rulers of the planet? Or the one where Athesits claim Christians hate science? Or the one where Christians want to stone Atheists? Or the one where you claim Christians are insane (a Marxists ploy).

Christians use logic and reason to do their best in this world, but as Christians we admit that we make mistakes – we’re sinners. But remember, Stalin, and all the other Atheist dictators and other murderers have often used man-made laws too, and likewise they interpret them however they wish. Both The USSR and China have had laws claiming to protect “freedom of religion,” they just interpret the meanings differently. If you can’t see that, you are misinterpreting things

CALDONIA

Nazi apologist: "Hitler works in mysterious ways."