crocodile deathroll

If my soul just my life's memories, then I can only recall memories back as far as the age of 2. Is this the first instance of my sense of self and the birthplace of my "soul".

My personal view is that the soul is a property of a self aware universe and the brain modifies this property with the property of acquired memory, so the soul for a time frame of typically a few earth decades is locked onto a worldline trajectory, dies and becomes totally disorientated and reemerges to another different worldline trajectory .

I must stress this self aware universe is only an emergent property of it, and was not at all instrumental in its creation. Same as other emergent properties like iron was, and we would not suggest that soul was the slightest bit instrumental in it's creation than iron. The only difference iron is not aware of its own existance like biological complexity.

However, I can never be asolutely certain and some may beg to differ, but what are your opinions/theories on the question of where the soul came from?

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

Osiris

This is not an easy question to answer as you posed, but the process of refining this question further is very enlightening. You seem to be using the word "soul" for "consciousness". Soul historically has been associated with the afterlife, or some lifelike quality which continues after death.

Also, your question asks "where it came from?" You are implying it originates in 'you', at some time in your past, when you developed memory. This is usually associated with consciousness, not soul.

Given the typical definition of soul, where did it come from? But are we asking where did the word "soul" come from? Or, are we asking where the soul originates in each of us? You seem to be asking the latter. I propose that your soul exists only in the mind of other people.

The origins of the word have a long, unclear, sorted history, and some would say a God is the soul of a previously living person who spoke. One theory is the soul is the result of the concept of "noun" in language. Way back in our evolution, when language was in it's infancy, it was necessary to associate a name to a person. I tend to believe the theory which says your soul begins to exist when someone assigns you a name. This does not have to be your name given by your parents, but can be as simple and as personal as "that pretty checkout lady at the store."

Julian Jaynes wrote an awesome book called "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." It is the most enlightening book I have ever read, but is generally ignored by philosophers, psychologists, antropologists, and linquists. The theory above came from reading this great work. I say it is derived from Jaynes because Jaynes only talks about the origin of the word "soul," and what part it played in the breakdown of the bicameral mind.

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Osiris ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

Yes I use the word "soul" and "consciousness" and sometimes the "mind" interchangeably although consciousness is less specific about its location in the universe. The soul on the other hand is at the very epicenter of your subjective reality.

Unlike many christians who speak of the word soul, I do not associate it as something that retains the memories of this life after death and remember all the deeds which the person may be rewarded for in Heaven or punished for in Hell. So I do not read any morality into such an entity, and sins go on to the phase unpunished and good deeds unrewarded, but so what.

I am of the view that consciousness emerged in the universe at a certain phase when it reached a critical level of complexity and the brain just happens to be the most complex known object in the universe. So it is no surprise the "soul" centered universe are right in locations where brains are located. You can not expect the universe to observe itself from the vantage point of a dead rock.

After death I speculate that the soul regresses right back to a "default consciousness" that is unspecific about its location and time in the universe. It is just at that critical phase when the universe undergoes a phase as it enters a critical level of complexity. Complexity that is necessary for the emergence of any form of consciousness.

The person the you are eventually to become is a totally random selection and you could just as likey of emerged as somebody else and observed to world through the eyes of that person.

Osiris

Granted, a dead rock does not have a soul. But, do you think tree has a soul? An insect? A dog? An ape? An infant?

So, if a soul is unique to humans, and our bodies are just the vehicles for the souls to use to experience this universe, where do the new souls come from in ever expanding population of earth?

The neo-realist says the dead rock knows of the existance of the ground upon which it sits.

Pythagorus thought as you do, and thought after death a soul enters the body of a newborn infant or animal, and lives another life.

Alfred Russel Wallace who was a co-discover of natural selection along with Darwin, thought the soul (using your definition) was the result of a metaphysical imposition. He felt a metaphysical force directed evolution at three different points: the beginning of life, beginning of consciousness and the beginning of civilized culture.

I am under the belief, like you, that it is all in your head. But instead of this default consciousness state, I believe consciousness is learned, and is the result of us being taught to think.

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Osiris ]

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Osiris ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

No I doubt a soul would be unique to humans I assume at least an adult ape would have an awareness of its own existence, but an infant may be a bit border line, its brain may well be just neurons slavishly obeying a genetically encoded instruction for the morphology of the human brain.
Insects may just get along with pure instinctive behavior and trees although that are alive would be no more conscious than a dead rock.

All souls are self selected out of a general pool of consciousness the critical phase transition of the universe's increasing complexity.
And you only observe the earth's ever expanding population from you frame of reference because all events (past present and future) in the universe are all equally real, which is a reason why I argue the earth's ever expanding population as a point in my favor because if you take into account all the people that have ever been born and ever will be born and write their name of a token and through them into a huge urn and blindly pick one out then you are more like to select one from an era in time when the earth's population swelled to large numbers.
So if the earth's population was about due for a dramatic population decline then you would of been born at a very typical time in human history.

The whole idea is covered in great depth <a href="http://www.anthropic-principle.com" target="_blank"> here </a>
The soul if it exists does have may survival advantages
I think you at least have to be conscious before you learn

sourdough

as far as I know the word soul/spirit comes from latin spiritus meaning breath,without breath there's no life,so the primitive people in the past thought that breath is some kind of spirit,life,and it goes to heaven etc,etc,now we know better.
see <a href="http://www.americanatheists.com." target="_blank">www.americanatheists.com.</a>

crocodile deathroll

This is why I thought to put the word "soul" in inverted commas. Now I just treat is as another word for subjective reality or perhaps individual consciousness

Amos

The soul always was. In our mythology our soul is wherein we are incarnate reproductions of God through our ancestors back to son of Adam to God.

A better question is where did we come from? We created our identity upon a blank slate which began during the second trimester of pregnacy. Upon this blank slate we write our own curriculum vitae and hopefully adapt the image of God for the next generation so it will be able to survive in a changing bio/socio environment.

Our soul is the blueprint after which we are created in the image of God. This blueprint contains the essence of our existence that we can modify through real life experiences that beome tied down in our soul.

crocodile deathroll

Why didn't you become somebody else. Was this blue print already preordained by a deity or a god? or could you of been just a random selection and there would of been an equal possibility of you becoming anybody like one this roulette wheel you are #15 but there was an equal possibility of you becoming to one on either side of it #19 or #32 or any number.

Amos

Because we are the incarnate son of God and this is true regardless if our parents realized or not realized that they were the continuity of God. Genetics do the rest.