Ultron

No.

This is an unfounded claim as well as a red herring issue. You still haven't answered my question: Do homosexuals prefer to have sex with members of the same gender?

Answer questions that are on-topic, rather than ask questions that aren't.

Again you're going to have to address the issue rather than make blanket claims of my "ignorance." Just answer the simple question.

And some athiests/agnostic. Not everyone has the same worldview as you. There are some religious people who don't mind homosexuality either.

You're telling me this? Heed your own advice. The topic isn't whether or not you think I'm ignorant or stupid, but whether or not sexual preferences are genetic. You can't or won't even answer the question, is homosexuality a sexual preference. Instead you try to find ways to assert whether or not I'm competent enough to discuss this.

Wouldn't you rather just discuss this instead of making personal attacks?

eldar1011

I think we are miscommunicating here. In my mind, arguements regarding civil rights and legally recognized marriages MUST have legal merits by definition. Personally, I believe that laws should not be based on anyone's morality. I believe that laws should safeguard against causing demonstratable harm against people. With this view, I find no reason for not legally recognizing same-sex marriages. Such marriages cause no demonstratable harm to anyone.

Well, I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed, for a brief moment I had hoped that someone...anyone...could present a reasonable case against homosexuality without religious context. However, our discussion doesn't seem to be heading in that direction.

Thank you for responding.

Ultron

Can we stick to the topic of homosexuality and whether or not it's genetic?

That doesn't mean that it's good. Again this is a morality question.

I disagree. This country first of all was never a theocracy. Second of all this is not a thread on abortion. Stick to the subject at hand please.

No but fish don't reproduce homosexually. This isn't about nature and fish. This is about what's natural for humans.

It's not irrelevant. Certainly one such as yourself can answer a simple question like that, right? Do homosexuals prefer members of the same gender or don't they?

Ultron

Quite possibly.

I guess I just don't understand the use of the phrase "legal merits."

I don't see how they can't be. You agree the freedom of speech is good right? So is the freedom of religion. And pedophilia is bad, as well as stealing. We have laws to enforce or punish good and bad things. That's clear examples where we are legislating our morality.

This is why, in my opinion, Democracy is so important. You may disagree with me on things, but it's our right to be heard on these matters, and influence the laws to protect what we see as good, and prevent that which we see as bad.

The downside is that lack of agreement part between the great lot of us.

So that demonstratable harm would be bad, right?

Ok so that's your moral standard, according to your principles. Even though I disagree with your morals in that case, I think it's imperative you not be silenced when it comes to what you think right and wrong is.

Well I'm more interested in the homosexuality is genetic arguement really.

Hey no problem. And thank you for being so thoughtful.

eldar1011

On more thing, if you don't think it's your place to chastise people for being religious or not, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is your place to oppose legally recognized same-sex marriages for reasons based solely on personal beliefs and moral standards?

Sure, chastisement for such things could lead to hurt feelings and that's not very nice. But, enacting laws or preventing the equal application of the law for such things has a far more detrimental affect.

It's easy to ignore chastisement. However, one can't receive death benefits, be considered "next of kin" and a whole host of other things simply because people like you are morally opposed to homosexuality.

It would seem to be that one causes much more harm than the other, yet you advocate open-mindedness in debate but not in law. I have difficulty reconciling this contradiction, do you?

Ultron

Thank you for the article Jat. Reading.

Ultron

There's nothing wrong with that. People have always had different morality. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't lobby for laws to reflect that. That's why the issue of representation has so much importance.

Personally, if someone tried to restrict my speech, I'd lobby hard against that.

The key is, I'm not lobbying against you voting based on your morality. The system won't work unless we let it.

Well they can still lobby for change as free citizens.

That's just it. My philosophy is the ultimate open-mindedness in law. Who am I to tell you that you can't vote your mind? Who am I to tell you what you can and cannot lobby for?

That's just it, it's not a contradiction.

Ultron

By your moral standard. Religious people who would argue the opposite, too.

I've brought up mine with no fear.

Howay the Toon

ultron.

Its not really good enough to just state that homosexuality is bad by your moral standard. You've got to be able to come up with some reason why. Otherwise how is anyone to have any sensible ethical debate.

I could just as easily say that having red hair is bad and I oppose the right of redheads to walk down the street. When asked why I will simply say that they are bad according to my moral standard.

Clearly this example, we will all agree, is absurd. But you are going to have to give some account of why your position on homosexuality is any different.

Ultron

I'll be honest with you, I'm not here to debate the ethics of homosexuality, any more than any of the other sexual preferences. I just want to discuss whether or not these things are genetic. I don't mind answering basic personal questions, as long as we can get back to the issues.

Sure. And who am I to deny you the right to believe that?

No I don't, because this isn't a debate on the ethics of homosexuality. Or at least, I haven't signed up for any ethics debates.