Freethought & Rationalism Archive

punta · 07-06-2002, 11:44 PM

trying to source the author of this quote:

"My greatest wish is for the last king to be strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

did this came from Denis Diderot, (1713-1784), philosopher, author, and editor of the first encyclopedia; once jailed for writing irreligious thoughts?

"Mankind shall not be free until the last king is strangled in the entrails of the last priest."
-Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois

or was it Jean Meslier, a lifelong priest who died an atheist, (1678-1733)? His memoir was circulated by Voltaire after Meslier's death.

Quote:

This expressed his disgust with humanity and his inability to believe in God. Newton's infinite space, Meslier believed, was the only eternal reality: nothing but matter existed. Religion was a device used by the rich to oppress the poor and render them powerless. Christianity was distinguished by its particularly ludicrous doctrines, such as the Trinity and the Incarnation. [A History of God]

Quote:

...attributed to Jean Meslier c. 1664-1733 and appears in French in Testament (ed. R. Charles, 1864) vol. 1, ch. 2. Meslier's quote starts out (English translation): I remember, on this matter, the wish made once by an ignorant, uneducated man�He said�. The man's wish, expressed next, is often presented in paraphased form as "Je voudrais�que le dernier des rois f�t �trangl� avec les boyaux du dernier pr�tre", "I should like�the last of the kings to be strangled with the guts of the last priest". [source "Oxford Dictionary of Quotations", 4th revised edition, 1996]

it seems unlikely that both philosophers came up with this independantly. anyone know who this is properly attributed to?

punta · 07-08-2002, 12:37 AM

nobody? oh well, i'll credit it to an unknown French peasant.

Thor Q. Mada · 07-08-2002, 01:12 AM

In don't have the time to look for it, but I think it was Diderot.
He could have said it. And by the way, with due respect to Diderot, I could have said it too, because it is correct and because I had a few more years than Diderot to watch the xians at work.
Priests and pastors are frauds, either knowingly which makes it a serious crime or out of ignorance which only makes it a crime if you try to entice other people into your delusion.
On both counts they are guilty.

punta · 07-08-2002, 01:40 PM

Thor Q. Mada , thanks for your thoughts.

Diderot definitely said it but was he quoting Meslier, a dying peasant, or a folk saying?

Dithyrambe sur la fete des Rois(c. 1780):

"And with the guts of the last priest
Let us strangle the last king!"-Denis Diderot[The Great Thoughts-George Seldes]

Diderot would have been 20 when Jean Meslier died in 1733. his memoirs were circulated by Voltaire. the memoirs contain the quote in question and credit them as the wish of some "...ignorant, uneducated man..."

that Diderot was unfamiliar with these memoirs, seems unlikely.

to my mind the question left is, "did this originate with Meslier's unknown French peasant, or was this phrase in circulation amongst the disillusioned masses?"

Thor Q. Mada · 07-08-2002, 04:36 PM

Punta,

At that time in France the masses were capable of anything and indeed and rightly so disillusioned.
Is it not strange that so long time ago, some people were more enlightened than a lot of people now.
Actually this has been happening all through history.
On a lighter note, was it Voltaire that is rumored to have said on his deathbed, when confronted with a priest who told him to repent, renounce the devil, and turn to God:

"It is not the right moment to make enemies"??
I always thought this to be a good one.

punta · 07-08-2002, 07:56 PM

...Is it not strange that so long time ago, some people were more enlightened than a lot of people now.
Actually this has been happening all through history...

I wonder who amongst us, now, will be seen as enlightened by future generations.

On a lighter note, was it Voltaire that is rumored to have said on his deathbed, when confronted with a priest who told him to repent, renounce the devil, and turn to God:

"It is not the right moment to make enemies"??
I always thought this to be a good one.

it is a good response but I don't think it was Voltaire. AFAIK the circumstances of his death were in conflict depending who told them.

Thor Q. Mada · 07-08-2002, 08:06 PM

Punta,

I don't know who will be considered "enlightened" but I have more than a few candidates whom I think-hope will be considered "backward", and strangely enough these people are usually very vocal and tend to spread their emptiness all around them.
Sometimes we call them politicians.
Sometimes they can be found posing as pastors, priests, network hosts, faith healers etc. When confronted with persons with reason they tend to drown them with cliches and empty blabla.
Scared people tend to believe them. In ancient Greece these persons would have been called demagogues. They still are.

punta · 07-08-2002, 08:46 PM

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/george_foote/infidel_deathbeds.html#1.80" target="_blank">this</a>from the library describes the controversy surrounding Voltaire's death. what the church couldn't claim in life they attempted to in death.

[edited cuz ma gramma stank]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: punta ]</p>

Thor Q. Mada · 07-08-2002, 10:31 PM

For one or another reason I like my Voltaire story better.

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07-08-2002, 12:37 AM	#2
punta Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Can-a-duh! Posts: 148	nobody? oh well, i'll credit it to an unknown French peasant.

07-08-2002, 01:12 AM	#3
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	In don't have the time to look for it, but I think it was Diderot. He could have said it. And by the way, with due respect to Diderot, I could have said it too, because it is correct and because I had a few more years than Diderot to watch the xians at work. Priests and pastors are frauds, either knowingly which makes it a serious crime or out of ignorance which only makes it a crime if you try to entice other people into your delusion. On both counts they are guilty.

07-08-2002, 01:40 PM	#4
punta Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Can-a-duh! Posts: 148	Thor Q. Mada , thanks for your thoughts. Diderot definitely said it but was he quoting Meslier, a dying peasant, or a folk saying? Dithyrambe sur la fete des Rois(c. 1780): "And with the guts of the last priest Let us strangle the last king!"-Denis Diderot[The Great Thoughts-George Seldes] Diderot would have been 20 when Jean Meslier died in 1733. his memoirs were circulated by Voltaire. the memoirs contain the quote in question and credit them as the wish of some "...ignorant, uneducated man..." that Diderot was unfamiliar with these memoirs, seems unlikely. to my mind the question left is, "did this originate with Meslier's unknown French peasant, or was this phrase in circulation amongst the disillusioned masses?"

07-08-2002, 04:36 PM	#5
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Punta, At that time in France the masses were capable of anything and indeed and rightly so disillusioned. Is it not strange that so long time ago, some people were more enlightened than a lot of people now. Actually this has been happening all through history. On a lighter note, was it Voltaire that is rumored to have said on his deathbed, when confronted with a priest who told him to repent, renounce the devil, and turn to God: "It is not the right moment to make enemies"?? I always thought this to be a good one.

07-08-2002, 07:56 PM	#6
punta Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Can-a-duh! Posts: 148	...Is it not strange that so long time ago, some people were more enlightened than a lot of people now. Actually this has been happening all through history... I wonder who amongst us, now, will be seen as enlightened by future generations. On a lighter note, was it Voltaire that is rumored to have said on his deathbed, when confronted with a priest who told him to repent, renounce the devil, and turn to God: "It is not the right moment to make enemies"?? I always thought this to be a good one. it is a good response but I don't think it was Voltaire. AFAIK the circumstances of his death were in conflict depending who told them.

07-08-2002, 08:06 PM	#7
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Punta, I don't know who will be considered "enlightened" but I have more than a few candidates whom I think-hope will be considered "backward", and strangely enough these people are usually very vocal and tend to spread their emptiness all around them. Sometimes we call them politicians. Sometimes they can be found posing as pastors, priests, network hosts, faith healers etc. When confronted with persons with reason they tend to drown them with cliches and empty blabla. Scared people tend to believe them. In ancient Greece these persons would have been called demagogues. They still are.

07-08-2002, 08:46 PM	#8
punta Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Can-a-duh! Posts: 148	<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/george_foote/infidel_deathbeds.html#1.80" target="_blank">this</a>from the library describes the controversy surrounding Voltaire's death. what the church couldn't claim in life they attempted to in death. [edited cuz ma gramma stank] [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: punta ]</p>

07-08-2002, 10:31 PM	#9
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	For one or another reason I like my Voltaire story better.

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