lpetrich

After seeing Metacrock and Photocrat assert what they call "polysymbolic monotheism", I began to wonder about where I had once seen something similar.

I knew that in pagan Europe, it was a very common practice to identify various peoples' deities with each other. Thus, in Herodotus, Zeus ~ Amon-Ra ~ Marduk ~ Ahura Mazda

But I just recalled a really big example: Apuleius's Golden Ass or Metamorphoses, in which the central character gets turned into a donkey, has lots of misadventures, and eventually has a vision of the goddess Isis, who explains how he can regain his original shape.

In that vision, Isis claims that she is worshipped under many names in many different places, which is something like polysymbolic monotheism. But that vision straightforwardly and explicitly states that view; compare how the Biblical God never states that he is worshipped under names like Zeus, Amon-Ra, Marduk, or Ahura Mazda.

But if any of you wish to argue that Isis is the Biblical God in drag, go ahead.

RyanS2

Yes, he also equates the God of Arabia (allah)with Dionysus, (or Bacchus), and equates the Goddess (Allat) with Ourania.

Well, the ancients weren't stupid. Zues, Amon-Ra, Amen-Ra, Ra, El Gabal, Ahura Mazda, it's all the Sun. The poem of Nonnus (5th century CE), which Dupuis remarks, is a record of the "course of the sun through the signs."

"Let us therefore first establish as an acknowledged fact that the Bacchus of the Greeks was merely a copy of the Osiris of the Egyptians, and that Osiris the husband of Isis, and worshipped in Egypt, was the Sun… The testimonies of Diodorus of Siculus, of Jamblicus, of Plutarch, of Diogenes-Laertius, of Suidas, of Macrobius, etc., agree in order to prove that it was a generally acknowledged fact by all the Ancients, that it was the Sun, which the Egyptians worshipped under the name of Osiris…"

Likewise, Roman authority Macrobius likewise demonstrates that "Liber Pater," or Dionysus/Bacchus, is the sun, using quotes from Orpheus, i.e., Orphic verses:

In the line: The sun, which men also call by name Dionysus

Orpheus manifestly declares that Liber is the sun, and the meaning is certainly quite clear; but the following line from the same poet is more difficult:

One Zeus, one Hades, one Sun, one Dionysus.

The warrant for this last line rests on an oracle of Apollo of Claros, wherein yet another name is given the sun; which is called, within the space of the same sacred verses by several names, including that of Iao. For when Apollo of Claros was asked who among the gods was to be regarded as the god called Iao, he replied:

Those who have learned the mysteries should hide the unsearchable secrets, but, if the understanding is small and the mind weak, then ponder this: that Iao is the supreme god of all gods; in winter, Hades; at spring's beginning, Zeus; the Sun in summer; and in autumn, the splendid Iao.

Concerning that, "Iao" was identified by Diodorus (1st century BCE) as the same as the Jewish tribal god Yahweh. The "IAO" is an Egyptian, Chaldean and Phoenician designation for Divinity, which, again, is represented by and identified with the sun.

Concerning Gods changing sex, that's interesting, because that is WHAT HAPPENS most of the time.

In the case of Tiamat she was said to have been conquered or killed by the new god. Sometimes the patriarchy boldly changed the sex of the Deity without changing the name— as with Ea in Syria, Shiva in India, or Atea in Polynesia.

In other cases, the Goddess would be slowly faded out and a male God would take over, as W. R. Smith points out, the goddesses of the ancient Semites "changed their sex and became gods" in historical times, (also found in Theodore Rikes, "Pagan Rites in Judiasm, pg. 7).), while other Gods, such as Atea, the supreme God of Polynesia, was a Goddess as little as 500 years ago. (Peter N. Buck, Vikings of the Pacific, p 73.)

Even Dionysus was a hermaphroditic God, containing both male and female qualities.

(Sources are Acharya S "Suns of God, Buddha, and Krishna Revealed", and a goofy feminist website which utilizes most of the same sources above, at <a href="http://www.aristasia.co.uk/universe.html)" target="_blank">http://www.aristasia.co.uk/universe.html)</a>

When debating, never take yourself too seriously. Any mythology to me is just so silly I really don't understand how people interpret this as a "literal" guide to anything.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: RyanS2 ]</p>

lpetrich

I must say that I have a hard time taking Acharya S's theories seriously; Acharya S seems like she's carefully selecting those sources that tell her that they are all sun gods, because many of her examples are not obviously sun gods according to most other sources.

Thus, Dionysus was a patron god of grapes and wine -- and was associated with some water-into-wine miracles. He was once captured, though he defeated his captors; he was also a sort-of reincarnation of Zagreus, a god who had been dismembered and eaten -- D's mother got to eat Z's heart. And Osiris was a dying and rising vegetation god; he once got dismembered and reassembled.

It is not surprising that Herodotus identified Osiris with Dionysus; he also identifid Isis with Demeter. And about Ahura Mazda, he said that Zeus in the Persians' system was the circle of the sky -- not the Sun.

RyanS2

Dying and dismemberment was common among lots of Gods, so that isn't conclusive of him being a wine-God. The most important clues for him being a wine God are the dedications to him.

"O Cyclops, son of the sea-god, come see what kind of divine drink this is that Greece provides from its vines, the gleaming cup of Dionysus."

[Odysseus to Polyphemus. Euripides, Cyclops 415]

One of my theories about the Greek and wine was that because wine contains antibacterial properties, it was more commonly used as a drink than water, which was hard to keep potable. Dionysus also increased his functions, originally winemaking, until finally, he was the God of vegetation and moist weather, (and associated with everything from crossdressing to rebellion). What Gods start out as and what God ends up as are most curious to me.

Let's look at the Egyptian Set. Originally, in earliest times, Set was the patron deity of Lower (North) Egypt, and represented the fierce storms of the desert whom the Lower Egyptians sought to appease. However, when Upper Egypt conquered Lower Egypt and ushered in the First Dynasty, Set became known as the evil enemy of Horus (Upper Egypt's dynastic god).

When we look at Set, we realize he is the Dark Serpent aspect of the God. He is God of the drought and storm, Lord of the Red Land (the desert, and deserts' were usually associated with evil spirits), and the God of War. It may be significant that the word "set" is also defined as "queen" or "princess" in Egyptian. "Au Set", which came to be known as "Isis" by the Greeks, is defined as "exceeding queen". In the myth of the combat, Seth tries to mate sexually with Horus; this is usually interpreted as being an insult.

If we go further back, we will have to trace a little timeline to see what all this is talking about. The earliest incarceration of Set is the serpent of darkness known as "Zet". This God came to be known by the Classical Greek writers as "Typhon", the serpent of the goddess Gaia. Zet may have once been female, or symbolic of the Goddess religion. This could be related to the Goddess "Au Zit", the "Great Serpent", who was the Cobra Goddess of Neolithic times.

The last way to look at this is by going to the battle between Set and Horus. We know that Horus was a Solar Diety. We then look at Isis as being the "Full Moon" (because she is the Goddess of Magick). If we connect from the earlier assumptions that Set was originally a female, then add it to the story of Set trying to mate with Horus, and then taking his eye, this could be the story of a Solar Eclipse.

Set is identified as two things. According to a scholar of the third century CE named Censorinus, the Egyptian solar calendar begins. But assuming that the Egyptian calendar started out corresponding with the seasons, then a more plausible starting date is around 2773 BCE. Furthermore, the Egyptian calendar was not solar but riverine: its premise was that the Nile always flooded after the star Sirius started rising in the east before instead of after sunrise. Still, it was a 365-day calendar, and except for missing the leap years it worked quite well. Sirius is the "Dog Star", the first star to rise in the east in the latitudes of Egypt. It is sacred to Set, the figure of Egyptian religion.

Archaic Egypt: Set generally occupies a secondary role to his enemy Horus, champion of the people of the North (except in the 2nd dynasty when one pharaoh took a "Set" name rather than a Horus name.) Set is intimately connected with teaching astronomy, the methods of agriculture, medicine, and above all magic. He is said to have opened the mouth of the other gods, and is the patron of the sem ritual. His cult titles include "Great of Magic" and "Eternal". There is indeed evidence that Set is set apart from other gods to die (Bonnet's commentaries on the Pyramid texts).

The astronomical cult, which placed the afterlife in the region of the Northern heavens -- particularly in and around the constellation of the Great Bear, was replaced in the Fourth dynasty by a growing sun cult centering on Re and Horus. The great stellar monument that Imhotep designed were replaced by the solar pyramids of the Fourth and Fifth dynasty's. (Notably Cheops took no chances in the great Pyramid's design, although outwardly a solar monument he had a hole bored through, so that the stones aligned with the position of Alpha Draconis (a star in the Great Bear called Thuban = "the Subtle One", a possible Set cult title,) just in case that was where his ka was heading.

During the next few dynasties (4 - 17), Set is generally ignored. His functions are absorbed into other gods. Thoth picks up the attributes of magic, Osiris picks up the attributes of Mysterious time "djet" as opposed to exoteric time "neheh". Set keeps his attributes as a storm and stellar god, and gradually comes to be associated with all night fears. He gets attributed with nightmares, desert fiends; in addition to the "bad animals" such as the Hippopotamus, and the jaguar of the South. He is mentioned in a famous 12th dynasty writing called "The Discourse of a man with his ba" in which his solar aspect "IAA" is referred to.

By the end of the Twentieth Dynasty, as the funerary cult of Osiris became the dominate force in popular Egyptian religion, Set's role changed to become that of the murderer of Osiris, and Set became the Evil One. In fact by the Twenty Sixth dynasty it was a common practice to disfigure any representations of Set.

So, is it possible/probable that Dionysus was originally Orpheus who was originally a sun god? Many other Gods had their functions taken over as new religions entered into the area, and as socio/political climates changed.