Defiant Heretic

Hawkingfan: He isn’t quoting scripture because we asked him not to.
I guess we need to clarify here: You can use a biblical citation as your definition of hell, but not as evidence for its existence.
Does everyone here agree to that?

So what's the difference between Hell and Heaven then?

Hobbs

All right, then, I'll use a different book.

In his play "No Exit," Sartre said that hell is other people. (Well, technically, a character in the play said that.) Other people do exist. Therefore, hell exists.

So, I am hell for you. And though, technically, this hell may not last for eternity, I can make it feel like an eternity.

How's that?

edited to add: But if you believe in God and spend your time fellowshipping with other believers, and you heed his advice to shake the dust from your shoes and head out of town if those you are preaching to are too stubborn to believe everything you tell them, then you will realize that I ain't havin' none of it and you will quickly leave, and I will no longer be your hell.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

Humble Heathen

I heard a guy talking about this on the 700 Club. Hey, I occasionally turn it on for laughs. I like to see how big of an asshole Pat Robertson is going to make himself look like.

Anyway, this guy was on there talking about someone who had a vision of hell and talking about people cannibalizing themselves and the flesh reappearing on the bone.

First of all, I think this is a really cheap attempt to disgust and frighten people into buying their religious bullshit. They can't get converts any other way, so why not horrify and threaten them??

Second, it doesn't make any sense. Why would people be eating themselves? Are they that hungry? Why would they need to eat if they're dead and in eternity? Are they forced to eat themselves? Is there a guy over them with a whip demanding they eat themselves? What happens when they get full?

Is this really that scary? I mean, it's just flesh. Not much different than beef or pork. We eat flesh on daily basis. Perhaps the frightening aspect is the pain factor from your teeth sinking into the skin?

I think it's just supposed to be a horrifying image to scare people into believing. You're really not suppose to consider the illogicality of it.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Humble Heathen ]</p>

Frivolous

Hobbs is funny

Hell is a metaphor. Heaven is a state of mind.

I suppose the hell metaphor being for the aggravating situation everyones in when they cant explain reason or meaning in life. therefore not accepting the bible puts you in hell.

im looking for the atheist heaven

Yellum Notnef

I don`t accept the bible and I certainly don`t feel bad or aggravated about it. I feel pretty good actually so maybe not accepting the bible IS atheist Heaven.

Hobbs

I suppose I could go along with the first sentence here: hell is the aggravation of not being able to explain reason or meaning in life, at least for those (like me) who care about such things (if you don't care about being able to explain reason or meaning in life and just like to live it, though, it certainly wouldn't be "hell" not to be able to explain it all). However, I can't go along with your "therefore." That seems to be saying that it is only by accepting the Bible that you can avoid this hell. But I used to accept the Bible, and eventually I had too many questions that it could not answer; I got to a point where it could no longer adequately explain reason or meaning in life. My studies in cognitive sciences, evolution, philosophy, history, etc, provided a far better basis for an explanation than the Bible could ever hope to. As I said in another thread, my previous religious beliefs were just too small to encompass the world I have gotten to know.

Stephen T-B

Oh yes, Hell exists, as does heaven, as do gods, fairies and greys: they exist in the human mind and they produce real effects - as real as Sunday, as having a cold, as being in love. As real as war; as burning someone to death at the stake, as dying a martyr.

HelenM

If you keep reading here and pay attention (no offense) I think you'll get a sense of it.

As best I can tell, it has to do with - not having to believe things that don't make sense to you; being able to get on with your life and live it the way that makes most sense to you, without worrying about what 'God' thinks; being able to live and let live instead of trying to save people from hell who don't believe in God; not having to wonder why God allows all the tragedy and suffering in the world because there can be no reason for it...stuff like that. So - it's here and now...to be enjoyed and made the most of...

Some of this I knew before I ever read this board, because I listen to what atheists say . (I'm not saying you don't; I'm just saying!)

Helen

A3

Hi All,

Yes it does.
There is a lot of material right here in the thread: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001550" target="_blank">here</a>
Basically, I wouls say, it's all in our heads, but then you already new that. HelenM seems to hit close to the nail. We seem to be able to do little more than what makes sense to us.
However, it seems important what we base our sense of right or wrong on.
I wonder what would motivate someone who does not believe in anything to be courteous in traffic, to be considerate??

Regards
Adriaan

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Hobbs

If you don't believe in anything, then you wouldn't believe in courteousness, traffic, other people, yourself, or, well, anything. If, however, you are aware that other people exist, if you care about any of them (and if you care about yourself, you at least have a selfish reason to care about others: if you scratch their backs, they're more likely to be willing to scratch yours; and since we are social creatures and our own well-being depends heavily on the well-being of others and the society we all live in, it seems reasonable that we would have evolved a capacity to naturally care about at least some others), and you pay any attention to causes and effects of actions, you can derive plenty of reasons for judgments of right or wrong, better or worse, in traffic or any other situations. (The same sort of stuff I would imagine that a god would base its moral judgments on; unless, of course, that god's moral judgments were just groundless, arbitrary whims).

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>