Corgan Sow

Just please someone refute this kid. I'm not exactly want to be spoonfed, it's just I do not know how to get him awakened since from that post he is sooooooo naive...

*marked in bold is my responses*

Ah, the popularity factor, my favourite. I thought of that too. "If so many ppl follow Xtianity, that means they're right!" when I renounced Buddhism.

I never said that I just said it was very popular. It also has been around longer than any other religion. And if the Bible is so wrong then how is it that it is proven that all the facts it states about kings and queens and other such facts that can be proven have been shown to be correct according to everything humans know about history?

Look at today Miguel. Xtianity is certainly popular, but it's popularity is eroding. With anti-Xtianity revolution (like here in debates), further added with shaking foundation of the Vatican and now...the peodophile crisis, more and more people are denouncing Xtianity. I heard now the popularity of freethinkers had reach the 1 billion count, but the source is not validified yet.

So if Less than 1/6 of the world is now considered to be "freethinkers" and close to half are "christians" then we can tell that christianity is eroding becuse some people (millions or billions it makes no difference) are choosing to go another way because they dont have faith in their religion? In stating this fact you look at this one-sided in that you dont seem to know how many "freethinkers" are becoming christians.
Also Catholics are not christians and they will admit it to you.

You are right though, that spirituality cannot be refuted by mere mental arguments. I lost my spirituality in Xtianity because when I craved it, I sense only numbness. Same goes as Muslims and Buddhists, even Wiccans and paganists who found peace in their practice. Who is it to blame?

You said it yourself when you said that YOU lost YOUR spirituality (faith) in christianity, the person to blame is the person that ceases to believe. This doesnt mean that they were wrong it just means that it is their decision and thus they are to "blame" for what they choose, because they are, after all, "freethinkers" with the ability to choose for themselves.


I do not generalise that ALL christians are, however people like Polemos, Apologist, who have found unshaken foundation in Christianity - their numbers are scarce. Many are like famed ex-Xtians like Dan Barker Berthand Russell...who were exposed to freethinking and the loopholes of the Bible, and unable to cling their faith

The bible has no loopholes its just that you dont understand what it is talking about. I dont mean that it depends on how you translate it, rather it depends on whether you choose to look at whatever you think is a loophole. Just because you think that something contradicts something else doesnt mean it does. You have to know what the entire verse you use is talking about or else you have taken it out of context and given it a different meaning. Then it would be a contradiction.
Again you have proven my point that it is the fault of that person for being unfaithful if they choose not to have faith in their religion whatever religion it may be.

Remember Billy Graham's "buddy"? Dr Charles Templeton. His wisdom was as deep in scripture as Billy Graham himself. And he renounced Xtianity. How frightening.

How is it frightening that someone "famous" lost their faith?

Uh, we freethinkers think that we are no better than animals. Just because our superior intellect made us "supreme" among all species doesn't mean that there is a God made in Our image.

You have defeated yourself in this statement. You said that freethinkers dont think themselves any better that animals then you go on th say that humans have a SUPERIOR INTELLECT which suggests that people are in fact better than humans. Also we were made in God's image and not Him in ours. There is a big difference between the two.

However, Xtianity IS animality itself. Xtianity uses free will excuse for God to abuse his poor creations into an ironic mind game.
Choose God and you have salvation. Choose no God and you'll burn forever
Wrong again. If you were to read the Bible you would know that there is one way to salvation. That way is Jesus. If you read Romans 10:9&10 you will learn that to get saved all it requires is for someone to "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth..." The only mind game going on is the one that people chose to make for themselves.
How is it that you think God is abusing anyone?

What about when Jesus told people not to listen to the Bible verse that says to hate your enemy, but to love your enemy instead?
Point out exactly in the Bible where Jesus said this and I will believe you. Until then I will have to believe when I read that Jesus said Not to hate your enemy but rather to love them instead as this will be like pouring hot coals on their head in that for all their evilness towards you you are still all the more good to them. An Eye for An Eye still stands but has different meaning (once again get your facts straight before you post and you will solve your problem). An eye for an eye means that if someone is caught breaking the law that their punishment should equal what they have done wrong to someone else. Therefore God still hasnt changed.

There is this excuse used that Jesus maintained the "eye for an eye" in means that in case of "compensation" only that the term "eye for an eye" can be used. However, we can see in the Bible as of "Turn the other cheek" that Jesus rejects compensation

Once again get your facts striaght and you will be able to answer your own questions. As I said before an eye for an eye is compensation for punishment. However turning the other cheek has to do with patience and again with the loving your enemy thing. Which means that there is no rejection of compensation by anyone. The only thing being rejected is repaying evil with evil.

aaahhhhhhhh....my brains are gonna blow!!!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Peter Kirby

Some guy said: Also Catholics are not christians and they will admit it to you.

Maybe that is why CCD stands for Catholic Christian Doctrine?

best,
Peter Kirby

Radorth

Is that all it takes?

This "thread" reminds me of Doherty's highly selective choice of e-mails, from ten thoughtful skeptics and the only two mindless Christians he could find.

It's one way to make a point I guess- pan the other side.

Radorth

CX

Why bother?

Or better yet invite him over here.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

WinAce

Hey, is that Miguel from GameFAQs, the one who said 'before Jesus Adam and Eve were Christians'?

Gregg

Wow, Rad, have you gained access to Doherty's deleted e-mail box? How else would you know that he's tossing out dozens of "thoughtful" e-mails from Christians and posting only the stupid ones? Maybe you should call his bluff, and put these censored e-mails on the Web for all to see.

Given ignorant statements like this, one could be forgiven for wondering if you have ever even visited Doherty's web site. Doherty had no problem re-posting a critical, but intelligent and thoughtful, Christian review of "The Jesus Puzzle" in its entirety on his own site. Here's an excerpt from his preliminary comments:

<strong> Rad, if you honestly believe that Doherty has to hunt through his in box to find the only two "mindless" e-mails from Christians, you're in a serious state of denial. Why not just go to Amazon.com and look at the negative reviews for THE JESUS PUZZLE? Of those, count up the "thoughtful" responses (ones that actually address Doherty's arguments and refute them in a polite, intelligent and thoughtful manner) and those which consist of hate-filled ad hominem attacks or snide dismissals or variations on the theme of "Doherty is doing the devil's work and is going to hell!!"

Good grief. Disagree with Doherty all you want, but don't try to argue that "mindless" comments from Christians are at all difficult to find, or that Doherty doesn't receive a generous number of them to choose from.

Gregg

Undercurrent

Perhaps I'm a bit off, but my understanding of the demgraphics were that the percentage of the earth's population that is "Christian" is something like 40% (maybe that's "almost half"), but that 40% is something like 2 to 1 catholic.

It seems like "freethinkers" and people who this person would accept as "christian" are at most on par.

m.

Peter Kirby

Should that be read "[2 to 1] Catholic" or "2 to [1 Catholic]"? That is, do you think that there are twice as many Catholics as non-Catholic Christians, or that there is one Catholic for every two non-Catholic Christians?

My memory says that there are roughly 1 billion Roman Catholic Christians and 1 billion Orthodox / Protestant / Other Christians, for a total of about one third of the globe professing to be Christian.

best,
Peter Kirby

Baidarka

OK I'm going to give it a try. Here are some obvious answers to some of Miguels statements. I hope this helps in some slight way.

"I never said that I just said it was very popular. It also has been around longer than any other religion. And if the Bible is so wrong then how is it that it is proven that all the facts it states about kings and queens and other such facts that can be proven have been shown to be correct according to everything humans know about history?"

Is Miguel saying that Christianity is the oldest Religion? What about Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Judaism?



"So if Less than 1/6 of the world is now considered to be "freethinkers" and close to half are "Christians" then we can tell that Christianity is eroding becuse some people (millions or billions it makes no difference) are choosing to go another way because they dont have faith in their religion? In stating this fact you look at this one-sided in that you dont seem to know how many "freethinkers" are becoming christians.
Also Catholics are not christians and they will admit it to you."

These 1/6th and 1/2 figures are meaningless. First of all Miguel says that Catholics are not Christians so lets not count them. Then lets add the people who pay lip service to religions that they don't really believe in, just to get along, to the freethinker column. Who knows maybe Free thinking people are really in the majority!



"You said it yourself when you said that YOU lost YOUR spirituality (faith) in christianity, the person to blame is the person that ceases to believe. This doesnt mean that they were wrong it just means that it is their decision and thus they are to "blame" for what they choose, because they are, after all, "freethinkers" with the ability to choose for themselves."

Thinking people actually are not free to choose their beliefs. They must use their minds to investigate the nature of reality. They must believe what the evidence leads them to. Religious minds must accept what ever their dogmas tell them to believe. Your idea that gullibility is a virtue and skepticism is a vice is mind numbing.

"The bible has no loopholes its just that you dont understand what it is talking about. I dont mean that it depends on how you translate it, rather it depends on whether you choose to look at whatever you think is a loophole. Just because you think that something contradicts something else doesnt mean it does. You have to know what the entire verse you use is talking about or else you have taken it out of context and given it a different meaning. Then it would be a contradiction.
Again you have proven my point that it is the fault of that person for being unfaithful if they choose not to have faith in their religion whatever religion it may be."

This is ridiculous the Bible is clearly a library of books written by people of widely divergent opinions. You must selectively shut your eyes and your mind to ignore this clear fact.

"Remember Billy Graham's "buddy"? Dr Charles Templeton. His wisdom was as deep in scripture as Billy Graham himself. And he renounced Xtianity. How frightening."

"How is it frightening that someone "famous" lost their faith?"

"Uh, we freethinkers think that we are no better than animals. Just because our superior intellect made us "supreme" among all species doesn't mean that there is a God made in Our image.

You have defeated yourself in this statement. You said that freethinkers dont think themselves any better that animals then you go on th say that humans have a SUPERIOR INTELLECT which suggests that people are in fact better than humans. Also we were made in God's image and not Him in ours. There is a big difference between the two."

We are animals. Just like the other animals. If we are made in God's image than so is the earthworm!

"Wrong again. If you were to read the Bible you would know that there is one way to salvation. That way is Jesus. If you read Romans 10:9&10 you will learn that to get saved all it requires is for someone to "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth..." The only mind game going on is the one that people chose to make for themselves.
How is it that you think God is abusing anyone?"

You have turned God and Jesus into evil puppets that you use to bend the mentally feeble to your will!

"Point out exactly in the Bible where Jesus said this and I will believe you. Until then I will have to believe when I read that Jesus said Not to hate your enemy but rather to love them instead as this will be like pouring hot coals on their head in that for all their evilness towards you you are still all the more good to them. An Eye for An Eye still stands but has different meaning (once again get your facts straight before you post and you will solve your problem). An eye for an eye means that if someone is caught breaking the law that their punishment should equal what they have done wrong to someone else. Therefore God still hasnt changed."

Again you can pretend to act meek and mild while using your evil puppets to intimidate those who disagree with you