Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philechat · 04-08-2003, 07:25 PM

I spent most of my life in a non-Christian culture, and found that most Christian arguments could not survive the attack of its origin as a culturally specific religion. And most philosophical arguments for theism can only prove a vague Deism, while I can basically find a counterargument against every general theist arguments presented (even the elusive "argument from personal experience"). I admit, however, of not studying the most up-to-date, academic arguments for theism, but it is most likely that these arguments can also only give logical bases for a generic, Deist-type God.

I supply it also with a belief in individual moral autonomy, knowing that if God exists he cannot make morality objective (thanks to Plato).

Jinto · 04-08-2003, 10:47 PM

The lack of evidence, and also the fact that I was never indoctrinated (actually, up until the age of 12, I didn't believe that there were people that actually still believed in God. I thought it was just a stupid socail convention.)

wildernesse · 04-08-2003, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
Nah. There are some agnostics, the odd christian and a pagan or two. Even a jew, I think.

We're equal opportunity.

Hey! I'm not odd! Am I?

Welcome, AndrewPearson.

--tibac

Shake · 04-09-2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewPearson
Why do you not believe in a god? Is it because of lack of evidence or something else? Explain.

I don't because of a lack of evidence to support anything supernatural.

Welcome, young Andrew!

First, if you haven't already, I would recommend you peruse the Atheist's Testimony thread over at SL&S. It will give you quite a lot to read about why and how many of the folks here came to their current state of (dis)belief.

Also, I would recommend looking at this thread, and specifically, the link on that thread to the II library called Objections Sustained! I'm reading through that one right now, and man, there's some good stuff there. I haven't quite gotten to the other links from that thread yet, but if they're half as good, then they're still very good!

Sorry for lack of a more specific answer right now. I'm back to reading the Objections!

spurly · 04-09-2003, 11:47 AM

Andrew, I have chosen to believe that God exists. Why? Because the evidence that he exists is overwhelming. Just some of the evidences of his existence that I have come to see are:

1) The fact that the world as we know it is too complicated to have just happened. There had to be an intelligent creator. If that creator exists, then he must be God.

2) Fulfilled prophecies of the OT. Some of these prophecies were made hundreds of years before their fulfillment came to pass, something that only God could do. (By the way, the ones that have not come to pass yet, will come to pass with time).

3) The changed lives of people who believe in Jesus. My life is one of those changed stories. He brought peace where it did not exist; fogiveness where there was guilt; and freedom from an addiction to pornography that I had as a teenager, just to name a few.

4) The congruency of his word. Though the Scriptures were written over a period of about 1500 years by aobut 40 different people, it tells the same story. The story of love lost in the Garden of Eden, God's attempt to bring us back into a love relationship with him that culminated with the sending of his son, and the fact that now we can once again live in relationship with God unhindered by sin.

That is just some of the reasons I have chosen to believe that God exists.

Thought you would like a view from the other side.

Kevin

Rhea · 04-09-2003, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Thought you would like a view from the other side.

Heh, actually, I suspect from his thread "help" that he would like no such thing.

Quote:

It is not that they are trying to hurt me mentally or physically, they are just extremely actively trying to convert me to Christianity. They don't even listen when I try to explain to them how they are Wrong. They just keep trying to Make me a Christian. Yuck.

now don't go pouncing on that thread, please.

Melkor · 04-09-2003, 12:23 PM

I've never believed in any gods... and most definitely not the Christian God.

Why? Because the evidence that he exists is completely lacking. Just some of the errors that point to his non-existence that I have come to see are:

1) The fact that the world as we know it is too complicated to have just been created for us, and us alone, at the center of the whole universe. To believe that is utterly arrogant and ignorant of the laws of probability and the laws of nature.

2) Unfulfilled prophecies of the OT. None of the prophecies made in the Old Testament have ever come true, and so-called "evidence" of their veracity is pretty laughable at best, outright fabrication more often than not.

3) The changed lives of people who believe in Jesus. My life is one of those changed stories. Because I don't believe in this guy, his followers have ridiculed me, reviled me, passed laws designed to specifically affect me and those like me, and have made me uncomfortable and at times fearful of my own safety. He brought war to people that only knew peace; animosity where there was love and acceptance; and slavery to a mindless mass of nonsensical beliefs to untold millions, just to name a few.

4) The lack of congruency of his word. The Scriptures were written over a period of about 1500 years by aobut 40 different people, and it tells many different stories that (some of which are blatantely taken from other religions of the times), most of which contradict each other and have a completely different moral thread to them. The story of love lost in the Garden of Eden, God's attempt to bring us back into a love relationship with him that culminated with the sending of his son, and the fact that now we can once again live in relationship with God unhindered by sin is complete gibberish, obviously concocted by madmen. Anyone who can make sense of the Bible as a whole must be mentally deficient or utterly devoid of reason. And if they weren't to begin with, they would be after reading it.

</sarcasm>

Okay, so my real reasons for not believing are a bit simpler, but not too far removed from that.... I always thought the very concept of all-powerful, invisible deities to be pretty absurd. Reading the Bible and studying various translations of it over the years, as well as the Apocrypha and the history of the Bible and its writers led me to confirm the absurdity even more solidly than I had suspected as a child. I have asked many theists repeatedly to give me some basis of determination for how one chooses one religion/god/faith over another, and as none have yet satisfactorily answered that question, I will not believe in any of them.

Nostalgic Pushhead · 04-09-2003, 01:19 PM

I'm Atheist.
Was raised "Christian", and by that I mean, my family wasn't "atheist", but religion wasn't an issue. I never went to church, I never read the bible.
NEVER had any belief in God. Ever.
Dabbled in Buddhism in high school, but didn't buy reincarnation, so lost interest.

Basically, I'm not religious because I think ALL religions are obviously bunk. Myths that just happen to be believed.

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04-08-2003, 07:25 PM	#11
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	I spent most of my life in a non-Christian culture, and found that most Christian arguments could not survive the attack of its origin as a culturally specific religion. And most philosophical arguments for theism can only prove a vague Deism, while I can basically find a counterargument against every general theist arguments presented (even the elusive "argument from personal experience"). I admit, however, of not studying the most up-to-date, academic arguments for theism, but it is most likely that these arguments can also only give logical bases for a generic, Deist-type God. I supply it also with a belief in individual moral autonomy, knowing that if God exists he cannot make morality objective (thanks to Plato).

04-08-2003, 10:47 PM	#12
Jinto Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 957	The lack of evidence, and also the fact that I was never indoctrinated (actually, up until the age of 12, I didn't believe that there were people that actually still believed in God. I thought it was just a stupid socail convention.)

04-09-2003, 11:47 AM	#15
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	Andrew, I have chosen to believe that God exists. Why? Because the evidence that he exists is overwhelming. Just some of the evidences of his existence that I have come to see are: 1) The fact that the world as we know it is too complicated to have just happened. There had to be an intelligent creator. If that creator exists, then he must be God. 2) Fulfilled prophecies of the OT. Some of these prophecies were made hundreds of years before their fulfillment came to pass, something that only God could do. (By the way, the ones that have not come to pass yet, will come to pass with time). 3) The changed lives of people who believe in Jesus. My life is one of those changed stories. He brought peace where it did not exist; fogiveness where there was guilt; and freedom from an addiction to pornography that I had as a teenager, just to name a few. 4) The congruency of his word. Though the Scriptures were written over a period of about 1500 years by aobut 40 different people, it tells the same story. The story of love lost in the Garden of Eden, God's attempt to bring us back into a love relationship with him that culminated with the sending of his son, and the fact that now we can once again live in relationship with God unhindered by sin. That is just some of the reasons I have chosen to believe that God exists. Thought you would like a view from the other side. Kevin

04-09-2003, 12:23 PM	#17
Melkor Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Void Posts: 396	I've never believed in any gods... and most definitely not the Christian God. Why? Because the evidence that he exists is completely lacking. Just some of the errors that point to his non-existence that I have come to see are: 1) The fact that the world as we know it is too complicated to have just been created for us, and us alone, at the center of the whole universe. To believe that is utterly arrogant and ignorant of the laws of probability and the laws of nature. 2) Unfulfilled prophecies of the OT. None of the prophecies made in the Old Testament have ever come true, and so-called "evidence" of their veracity is pretty laughable at best, outright fabrication more often than not. 3) The changed lives of people who believe in Jesus. My life is one of those changed stories. Because I don't believe in this guy, his followers have ridiculed me, reviled me, passed laws designed to specifically affect me and those like me, and have made me uncomfortable and at times fearful of my own safety. He brought war to people that only knew peace; animosity where there was love and acceptance; and slavery to a mindless mass of nonsensical beliefs to untold millions, just to name a few. 4) The lack of congruency of his word. The Scriptures were written over a period of about 1500 years by aobut 40 different people, and it tells many different stories that (some of which are blatantely taken from other religions of the times), most of which contradict each other and have a completely different moral thread to them. The story of love lost in the Garden of Eden, God's attempt to bring us back into a love relationship with him that culminated with the sending of his son, and the fact that now we can once again live in relationship with God unhindered by sin is complete gibberish, obviously concocted by madmen. Anyone who can make sense of the Bible as a whole must be mentally deficient or utterly devoid of reason. And if they weren't to begin with, they would be after reading it. </sarcasm> Okay, so my real reasons for not believing are a bit simpler, but not too far removed from that.... I always thought the very concept of all-powerful, invisible deities to be pretty absurd. Reading the Bible and studying various translations of it over the years, as well as the Apocrypha and the history of the Bible and its writers led me to confirm the absurdity even more solidly than I had suspected as a child. I have asked many theists repeatedly to give me some basis of determination for how one chooses one religion/god/faith over another, and as none have yet satisfactorily answered that question, I will not believe in any of them.

04-09-2003, 01:19 PM	#18
Nostalgic Pushhead Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: So. Burlington, Vermont Posts: 4,315	I'm Atheist. Was raised "Christian", and by that I mean, my family wasn't "atheist", but religion wasn't an issue. I never went to church, I never read the bible. NEVER had any belief in God. Ever. Dabbled in Buddhism in high school, but didn't buy reincarnation, so lost interest. Basically, I'm not religious because I think ALL religions are obviously bunk. Myths that just happen to be believed.

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