Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hayden · 11-08-2002, 12:58 AM

I'm addressing this post specifically to Christians, or at least members of one of the Abrahamic faiths, as they seem to be the most keen on eternal damnation, although anyone should feel free to chime in:

The Free-Will defence is often proposed as the solution to the problem of evil (God is good, God is omniscient, God is omnipotent; yet evil exists). According to the Free-Will defence, God gave us free will, and to intervene directly in our affairs would violate our free will.

From this premise, can we not therefore conclude that God values free will more than he values us? If showing Himself to an atheist would save that atheist from going to hell, while violating that person's free will, is that not preferable to eternal suffering? Christians claim that God loves each of His children, yet apparently he loves us less than He loves our free will.

How highly does God rate free will? Apparently He allows countless murders, rapes and other atrocities to be performed every day, and holds the free will of the perpetrators in higher regards than the lives and welfare of their victims.

Comments anyone?

NB: Before anyone starts, a being which is both omnipotent and omniscient is either directly responsible for, or at least allows every occurrence.

HR

Jamie_L · 11-08-2002, 04:24 AM

Another thing I don't understand is how people can say with a straight face that making an informed decision with adequate information preculdes free will. Why does God appearing before me and saying "I'm real" prevent me from choosing freely whether to worship him or not?

Jamie

John 3 · 11-08-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Why does God appearing before me and saying "I'm real" prevent me from choosing freely whether to worship him or not?

It doesnt. But his angels whent against him while knowing he was real. Before you can see him, he wants to know if you he can trust you and if you trust him.

Taking away all evil would equate to no free will, but seeing him would not. Yet seeing him does not prevent ones free will to do evil.

So he sets up a system that can sift the good from the bad. He makes it so that if your a selfish person, you simply wont understand the position you have been put in. If your completely selfless and compasionate and trustworthy to the will of God, then you will understand and accept this situation. Only then does he decide if He can trust you to see him and not fall from his grace there after.

Thats my understanding of the Christian situation.

Keith Russell · 11-08-2002, 11:04 AM

John 3 said:
"It doesnt. But his angels whent against him while knowing he was real. Before you can see him, he wants to know if you he can trust you and if you trust him. "

Keith:
Wait a minute, I thought 'God' was omniecient--I thought 'God' was supposed to know everything.

How can 'God' NOT know whether 'He' can trust me, or not? (Not only that, but 'God' supposedly made us, 'He' ought to know everything about us, including our trustworthiness...right?

Keith.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

Bible Humper · 11-08-2002, 11:54 AM

/vulture_mode_on

I got dibs on any gibs, you need to lure some prey in here though....

/stealth_ninjamode_on

I'll be watching....

rdalin · 11-08-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
<strong>Another thing I don't understand is how people can say with a straight face that making an informed decision with adequate information preculdes free will. Why does God appearing before me and saying "I'm real" prevent me from choosing freely whether to worship him or not?

Jamie</strong>

The answer that I've seen theists give is that God appearing before you would take away your free will, possibly because this would be so overwhelming an event that you'd no longer have a choice about whether to believe or not.

I've also seen it said that God wants us to believe in him on faith, after which we'll have evidence. It's never explained why this is.

I'm not defending either of these points of view, but I have seen them.

Thomas Metcalf · 11-08-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Hayden:

"How highly does God rate free will? Apparently He allows countless murders, rapes and other atrocities to be performed every day, and holds the free will of the perpetrators in higher regards than the lives and welfare of their victims."

This is a very important question to ask of the proponent of the FWD. Extremely often, God allows the free will of Murderer M ("I want to kill Victim V!") to take precedence over the free will of Victim V ("I don't want to die!") Apparently, the prevention of some people's free will is okay.

We may go further. I do not have the power to zap my neighbor with a bolt of electricity from my finger whenever I want to. God has apparently arranged the universe so that this is impossible for me. Yet, it does not seem to follow that I lack free will; perhaps I lack total freedom of action, but I can still desire to zap my neighbor. Why has God arranged the laws of the universe so that I cannot zap my neighbor in this way, but not so that people fail to torture babies more often than they fail now? How does one not preclude my free will, but the other would?

As I see it, the proponent of the FWD must argue that if God replaced one of our freedoms with a slightly less damaging one, for example if He caused us to fail to torture babies 51% of the time instead of failing, say, 50% of the time, we'd no longer have significant free will. I don't see any promise to this sort of argument.

PandaJoe · 11-08-2002, 02:48 PM

A question I'd ask to counter their defense is if there is evil in Heaven. Since apparently removing all evil means we have no free will, we must not have free will in heaven, right? Of course, they might say that we have no desire to do evil in heaven, but I'd simply say that would be the perfect way to remove evil on earth.

Bible Humper · 11-08-2002, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Why has God arranged the laws of the universe so that I cannot zap my neighbor in this way, but not so that people fail to torture babies more often than they fail now? How does one not preclude my free will, but the other would?

Yup, there's no escape for the deity!

Even if the Xians try to rationalise and claim that our free will to believe in the deity or not is more important than this, they still have to explain why he didn't make it appear to be an evolutionary feature.

If people couldn't even force their bodies to obey the command to harm children, he could still have rigged it to look like it evolved on it's own. That way, he doesn't ruin his plan which demands that his existence be completely indistinguishable from his nonexistence.

Jesus Solipsistic Christ, I wonder how they'll attempt to rationalise this one!

xeren · 11-09-2002, 10:33 PM

*bump*
I think we're all /vulture mode on for this one. The arguments in the above 8 or so posts is why i am a strong atheist when it comes to the christian god.

No christian i've talked to yet has given me any answers to these questions

Anyone care to try.....hmmmmm?

11-08-2002, 12:58 AM	#1
Hayden Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 712	The problem with the Free-Will Defense (redux) I'm addressing this post specifically to Christians, or at least members of one of the Abrahamic faiths, as they seem to be the most keen on eternal damnation, although anyone should feel free to chime in: The Free-Will defence is often proposed as the solution to the problem of evil (God is good, God is omniscient, God is omnipotent; yet evil exists). According to the Free-Will defence, God gave us free will, and to intervene directly in our affairs would violate our free will. From this premise, can we not therefore conclude that God values free will more than he values us? If showing Himself to an atheist would save that atheist from going to hell, while violating that person's free will, is that not preferable to eternal suffering? Christians claim that God loves each of His children, yet apparently he loves us less than He loves our free will. How highly does God rate free will? Apparently He allows countless murders, rapes and other atrocities to be performed every day, and holds the free will of the perpetrators in higher regards than the lives and welfare of their victims. Comments anyone? NB: Before anyone starts, a being which is both omnipotent and omniscient is either directly responsible for, or at least allows every occurrence. HR

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11-08-2002, 04:24 AM	#2
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Another thing I don't understand is how people can say with a straight face that making an informed decision with adequate information preculdes free will. Why does God appearing before me and saying "I'm real" prevent me from choosing freely whether to worship him or not? Jamie

11-08-2002, 11:04 AM	#4
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	John 3 said: "It doesnt. But his angels whent against him while knowing he was real. Before you can see him, he wants to know if you he can trust you and if you trust him. " Keith: Wait a minute, I thought 'God' was omniecient--I thought 'God' was supposed to know everything. How can 'God' NOT know whether 'He' can trust me, or not? (Not only that, but 'God' supposedly made us, 'He' ought to know everything about us, including our trustworthiness...right? Keith. [ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

11-08-2002, 11:54 AM	#5
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	/vulture_mode_on I got dibs on any gibs, you need to lure some prey in here though.... /stealth_ninjamode_on I'll be watching....

11-08-2002, 01:56 PM	#7
Thomas Metcalf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 1,009	Originally posted by Hayden: "How highly does God rate free will? Apparently He allows countless murders, rapes and other atrocities to be performed every day, and holds the free will of the perpetrators in higher regards than the lives and welfare of their victims." This is a very important question to ask of the proponent of the FWD. Extremely often, God allows the free will of Murderer M ("I want to kill Victim V!") to take precedence over the free will of Victim V ("I don't want to die!") Apparently, the prevention of some people's free will is okay. We may go further. I do not have the power to zap my neighbor with a bolt of electricity from my finger whenever I want to. God has apparently arranged the universe so that this is impossible for me. Yet, it does not seem to follow that I lack free will; perhaps I lack total freedom of action, but I can still desire to zap my neighbor. Why has God arranged the laws of the universe so that I cannot zap my neighbor in this way, but not so that people fail to torture babies more often than they fail now? How does one not preclude my free will, but the other would? As I see it, the proponent of the FWD must argue that if God replaced one of our freedoms with a slightly less damaging one, for example if He caused us to fail to torture babies 51% of the time instead of failing, say, 50% of the time, we'd no longer have significant free will. I don't see any promise to this sort of argument.

11-08-2002, 02:48 PM	#8
PandaJoe Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 188	A question I'd ask to counter their defense is if there is evil in Heaven. Since apparently removing all evil means we have no free will, we must not have free will in heaven, right? Of course, they might say that we have no desire to do evil in heaven, but I'd simply say that would be the perfect way to remove evil on earth.

11-09-2002, 10:33 PM	#10
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	bump I think we're all /vulture mode on for this one. The arguments in the above 8 or so posts is why i am a strong atheist when it comes to the christian god. No christian i've talked to yet has given me any answers to these questions Anyone care to try.....hmmmmm?

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