Talulah

I believe that Helen was offering a reason why bible believers feel justified making moral judgements on people. They don't NEED a rational reason, the bible says so, end of discussion, next topic. In their mind anyway.

As an example, growing up, I was told many, many times that the conscience is not a guide, it doesn't matter what you think and your feelings could be the devil working in your life trying to lead you away from righteousness.

The main point was, human judgement is fallible, selfish and evil. God's judgement and laws are righeteous, perfect and forever. Humans do not question, just believe, because to do otherwise is to risk your soul.

free12thinker

I read her loud and clear on this train of thought. But I think it's weak minded. To listen without questioning is to follow blindly, and therefore, follow without justification.

But, if anything, it proves the only thing this particular post was out to prove--there is no justification to calling homosexuality immoral. And if someone wants to call gods word justification, than I guess it's okay for the Taliban to jusitfy the 9/11 attacks. There is no difference in concept. It's listening to god, no matter which god (out of the many), one chooses to listen to.

I call it a crutch and weak-minded on both sides.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

HelenM

Originally posted by free12thinker:

I read her loud and clear on this train of thought. But I think it's weak minded. To listen without questioning is to follow blindly, and therefore, follow without justification.

I don't listen without questioning.

This is a quote from <a href="http://members.directvinternet.com/%7Emildenhall/writings/course.html" target="_blank">something else I wrote</a> that was also in the newspaper:

If you want to call me weak-minded I guess that's up to you.

love
Helen

free12thinker

Let's make it simple. Is homosexuality immoral, in your opinion? If you answer yes, please explain why, without mentioning god. If you cannot, how else am I to assume that your opinion is rational, if it is in fact based on the beliefs of someone else, and without insight beyond their verbatim?

HelenM

Originally posted by free12thinker:

Let's make it simple.

That's your first mistake - imo.

Real life is not simple. If you think it is then I'd say you're out of touch with reality.

Is homosexuality immoral, in your opinion?

Why does my 'opinion' matter? It's just my opinion.

If you answer yes, please explain why, without mentioning god. If you cannot, how else am I to assume that your opinion is rational, if it is in fact based on the beliefs of someone else, and without insight beyond their verbatim?

How else indeed?

Maybe it isn't rational.

love
Helen

free12thinker

You're simply walking around the question now. You argue that what god says goes, and I call you weak minded. You defend your "mind" with some articles you wrote, but you won't directly answer a question surrounding the very topic of this post. Homosexuality.

So what are you doing here besides telling me your opinion doesn't matter and that you may not be rational anyways.


Otay. I'll leave it at that and move on.
Take care.

HelenM

I didn't

I was simply trying to show how Christians think...often...

I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...

love
Helen

diana

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition....

free12thinker,

I understand what you're saying, and you're right, but I think you may be misunderstanding Helen's position.

She has her beliefs, and her moral codes are in accordance with those beliefs, but she acknowledges that, in the end, this is what she believes. She doesn't claim to know, and therefore doesn't feel obliged to dictate an absolute morality based upon her beliefs that everyone is answerable to.

Is her position rational or not? She's already said maybe it isn't, but these are her beliefs and she refuses--rightly, IMO--to state her opinions on morality as though they were fact.

This bothers me, I suppose, because I don't mind believers who acknowledge the distinction between "belief" and "knowledge." It's those who purport to know what's right and wrong who are dangerous. Those are the ones you need to go after with guns blazing.

Those who simply believe but allow they don't know are honest with themselves, I think, and don't pose a threat to society. Helen is one of those, which is one of the reasons I spring to her defense.

d

HelenM

Thanks, Diana

Actually I'm not even sure what I believe.

It seems sadly ironic when other people are more sure than I am, based on this or that presupposition. Of course you can guess my position on an issue, if you like. If that floats your boat...

Anyway, that probably won't satisfy the Spanish Inquisition though...I'll brace myself for the comfy chair and the poking with soft pillows, I suppose...

love
Helen

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

free12thinker

I'm not the Spanish Inquisition, but when you post a reply to a topic on a debate forum, you should at least be able to back-up your statement.

Your statement was that what god says goes. I asked you why you believe this to be a valid point, now you're claiming that you're not sure what you believe.

It's just very strange to me, that someone who frequents a debate forum as you do, and has opinions on so many things as you do, would limit their defense to, "Well, I'm not so sure myself anyway". (Not your exact words, but a synopsis nonetheless).

I am fine with your final word that maybe you're not so sure. My answers certainly aren't absolute (no ones are for that matter), but what I say comes from me, and has some logic and reason behind them.

Take care though.