Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John · 10-01-2002, 02:09 PM

SUN VALLEY, CA - October 1, 2002 - A long-standing offer to prove evolution has been accepted by John D. Callahan, a theistic evolutionist and president of Faith & Reason Ministries: Reconciling Christianity with Accepted Science, <a href="http://www.faithreason.org/." target="_blank">http://www.faithreason.org/.</a> The offer is being made by Dr. Kent Hovind, a young-Earth creationist and leader of Creation Science Evangelism, <a href="http://www.drdino.com/." target="_blank">http://www.drdino.com/.</a>

Callahan writes Dr. Hovind, in a widely distributed open letter: "I accept your offer to prove evolution and win $250,000. I will prove secular, scientific evolution as it is appropriately taught in our schools. As you stipulate, this includes both the large-scale evolution of the universe, from the Big Bang, and Darwinian biological evolution. I could appeal to the mountain of empirical evidence (observation and experimentation) from many areas of science, which puts evolution beyond doubt to almost all scientists. However, this would be overkill, and since evolution is so simple to prove, I will do it in this letter. You insist evolution is an unsubstantiated, immoral religion; this is incorrect."

"First consider biological evolution. Besides innumerable transitional fossils -- dating billions of years to very primitive forms -- there are many living species (of the millions on Earth) and breeds that are obvious cousins and direct descendants of one another. An illustration is the domestic dog, which can produce a generation 30 times faster than man. From gray wolf populations the domestic dog has evolved (naturally and via human intervention) into dozens of species and hundreds of breeds (enormous gene pool) over the last 10,000 years. These are more than minor variations and indicative of macroevolution. Further, since a gray wolf has evolved into a pug dog, an ape has surely evolved into a Homo erectus and then a man."

"As far as large-scale evolution, the cosmic background radiation confirms the Big Bang and structure of the universe. Also light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Thus when astronomers look at distance objects, they are looking back in time. This 'time travel' clearly shows the evolution of the universe, from quasars and primitive galaxies (billions of years ago) to the modern appearance of our local universe. In addition we see stars in various stages of evolution, nucleosynthesis in supernova 1987A, molecules in space, and solar systems forming from dust and gas. Not every detail is understood, such as dark matter and energy, but this in no way negates the basic age and evolution of the universe."

"However, evolution makes no statement as to the existence of God. (For proof of His being, please see <a href="http://www.faithreason.org/.)" target="_blank">http://www.faithreason.org/.)</a> Therefore I address your point, '1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves,' by stating that God created the universe with physical and spiritual laws facilitating evolution. Moreover, God is present and working in our lives and the universe, but not as envisioned by modern creation mythology: young-Earth creationism (your conviction), old-Earth creationism, and intelligent design theory."

"Please send my $250,000 to the address above. Thanks. If you wish more detail, from the ever-increasing mountain of empirical evidence, I would be happy to present before your review committee (or debate) provided you sponsor a public event and pay my traveling expenses (outside the Los Angeles, CA area)."

Dr. Hovind's challenge has been a rallying cry for creationists, and he asserts few, if any, legitimate inquires have been made -- and certainly no proof. However, evolutionists contend Dr. Hovind is not open to empirical evidence and scientific method. How will Dr. Hovind respond to the Callahan letter, which claims to concisely prove evolution consistent with belief in God?

Valentine Pontifex · 10-01-2002, 02:21 PM

I think I know the name of someone who will not be getting $250,000.

Does this guy not notice that he is trying to claim an award that is designed to be unclaimable regardless of the truth of the issue?

Doubting Didymus · 10-01-2002, 02:46 PM

Now all he needs to do is get hovind to agree with him, and then get hovinds panel of experts chosen by hovind to agree with him also. Oh yeah, and of course hovind reserves the right to never even submit this particular challenge to himself or his panel. I also doubt that this letter 'proves' to hovinds satisfaction that matter 'created itself', whatever that means, or that macroevolution is the 'only possible explanation'.

Another thing I doubt is that hovind even has access to 250 000 dollars, unless it is currently holding together his legal defense funds.

Personally I think it is a very good letter. The transition from grey wolves to small, exotic 'toy' dogs is my personal favourite proof of macroevolution.

lpetrich · 10-01-2002, 03:45 PM

It will be interesting to see KH's response. However, I suspect that it will be much like his response to someone who proposed polar bears as an example of evolution.

Which was that polar-bear evolution does not count because polar bears are still bears.

Corwin · 10-01-2002, 03:55 PM

His response will most likely be his typical drivel.

'Your wrong you stupid satanic tool of the NWO.'

He's a riot... mostly because 'Doctor' Hovind writes at about a ninth grade level.... he's sort of like Ann Coulter without as much press.

tgamble · 10-01-2002, 04:00 PM

>>It will be interesting to see KH's response.>>

Bah, easy to predict. Hovind has his hand full with the evil evilutionists trying to get him in the slammer.

Quote:

Originally posted by John:
<strong>"First consider biological evolution. Besides innumerable transitional fossils -- dating billions of years to very primitive forms --

DATING METHODS ARE A LIE BASEDO N EVOLUTION! You need to watch one of my crappy videos where I pretend to have more brains than dog shit.

Quote:

there are many living species (of the millions on Earth) and breeds that are obvious cousins and direct descendants of one another.

Just variations within a kind.

[/QUOTE]An illustration is the domestic dog, which can produce a generation 30 times faster than man. From gray wolf populations the domestic dog has evolved (naturally and via human intervention) into dozens of species and hundreds of breeds (enormous gene pool) over the last 10,000 years.[/QUOTE]

It's still a wolf and it's still a dog. Nothing new.

Quote:

These are more than minor variations and indicative of macroevolution.

ARE NOT! ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!ARE NOT!

Quote:

Further, since a gray wolf has evolved into a pug dog, an ape has surely evolved into a Homo erectus and then a man."

<out of hovind mockery> Huh? Since when did apes evolve into homo erectus?</out of hovind mockery>

Quote:

"As far as large-scale evolution, the cosmic background radiation confirms the Big Bang and structure of the universe. Also light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Thus when astronomers look at distance objects, they are looking back in time.

ALL LIES! Brilliant scientists like me have refuted this many times!

Quote:

"However, evolution makes no statement as to the existence of God.

YOU'RE A FALSE CHRISTIAN BRAINWASHED BY SATAN!

Quote:

"Please send my $250,000 to the address above.

You will first have to present evidence that rocks can turn into people.

Quote:

Dr. Hovind's challenge has been a rallying cry for creationists, and he asserts few, if any, legitimate inquires have been made -- and certainly no proof. However, evolutionists contend Dr. Hovind is not open to empirical evidence and scientific method.

They're all ammoral LIARS! Evilution teaches that we're just animals and that's why all evilutionists have no morals! They are responsible for slavery, abortion, women's rights, people who return videos without rewinding and every other evil in the history of the planet.

[/QUOTE]How will Dr. Hovind respond to the Callahan letter, which claims to concisely prove evolution consistent with belief in God?</strong>[/QUOTE]

<out of hovind mockery> By being a lying asshole. Duh.

</out of hovind mockery>

Still no evidence that monkeys turned into humans or dirt turn into fish! Evolution is a satanic LIE!

Camaban · 10-01-2002, 04:34 PM

tgamble: That prediction is just freaky in its future accuracy...

(But a bit more intelligent than previous responses he's made)

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Camaban ]</p>

Jimmy Higgins · 10-01-2002, 05:02 PM

Hmmm. I've had a 2 trillion dollar (US), offer on the proof of theism for a while now. I haven't awarded the prize yet. Must mean theism isn't true.

Coragyps · 10-01-2002, 05:21 PM

The biggest question remaining is: if Hovind uses that $250,000 to pay his defense lawyer, will the lawyer have to report it to Internal Revenue?

Silent Dave · 10-02-2002, 03:35 AM

John, keep us updated on where, if anywhere, this goes.

Dave

10-01-2002, 02:09 PM	#1
John Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sun Valley, CA Posts: 22	$250,000 Evolution Challenge Accepted! SUN VALLEY, CA - October 1, 2002 - A long-standing offer to prove evolution has been accepted by John D. Callahan, a theistic evolutionist and president of Faith & Reason Ministries: Reconciling Christianity with Accepted Science, <a href="http://www.faithreason.org/." target="_blank">http://www.faithreason.org/.</a> The offer is being made by Dr. Kent Hovind, a young-Earth creationist and leader of Creation Science Evangelism, <a href="http://www.drdino.com/." target="_blank">http://www.drdino.com/.</a> Callahan writes Dr. Hovind, in a widely distributed open letter: "I accept your offer to prove evolution and win $250,000. I will prove secular, scientific evolution as it is appropriately taught in our schools. As you stipulate, this includes both the large-scale evolution of the universe, from the Big Bang, and Darwinian biological evolution. I could appeal to the mountain of empirical evidence (observation and experimentation) from many areas of science, which puts evolution beyond doubt to almost all scientists. However, this would be overkill, and since evolution is so simple to prove, I will do it in this letter. You insist evolution is an unsubstantiated, immoral religion; this is incorrect." "First consider biological evolution. Besides innumerable transitional fossils -- dating billions of years to very primitive forms -- there are many living species (of the millions on Earth) and breeds that are obvious cousins and direct descendants of one another. An illustration is the domestic dog, which can produce a generation 30 times faster than man. From gray wolf populations the domestic dog has evolved (naturally and via human intervention) into dozens of species and hundreds of breeds (enormous gene pool) over the last 10,000 years. These are more than minor variations and indicative of macroevolution. Further, since a gray wolf has evolved into a pug dog, an ape has surely evolved into a Homo erectus and then a man." "As far as large-scale evolution, the cosmic background radiation confirms the Big Bang and structure of the universe. Also light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Thus when astronomers look at distance objects, they are looking back in time. This 'time travel' clearly shows the evolution of the universe, from quasars and primitive galaxies (billions of years ago) to the modern appearance of our local universe. In addition we see stars in various stages of evolution, nucleosynthesis in supernova 1987A, molecules in space, and solar systems forming from dust and gas. Not every detail is understood, such as dark matter and energy, but this in no way negates the basic age and evolution of the universe." "However, evolution makes no statement as to the existence of God. (For proof of His being, please see <a href="http://www.faithreason.org/.)" target="_blank">http://www.faithreason.org/.)</a> Therefore I address your point, '1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves,' by stating that God created the universe with physical and spiritual laws facilitating evolution. Moreover, God is present and working in our lives and the universe, but not as envisioned by modern creation mythology: young-Earth creationism (your conviction), old-Earth creationism, and intelligent design theory." "Please send my $250,000 to the address above. Thanks. If you wish more detail, from the ever-increasing mountain of empirical evidence, I would be happy to present before your review committee (or debate) provided you sponsor a public event and pay my traveling expenses (outside the Los Angeles, CA area)." Dr. Hovind's challenge has been a rallying cry for creationists, and he asserts few, if any, legitimate inquires have been made -- and certainly no proof. However, evolutionists contend Dr. Hovind is not open to empirical evidence and scientific method. How will Dr. Hovind respond to the Callahan letter, which claims to concisely prove evolution consistent with belief in God?

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10-01-2002, 02:21 PM	#2
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	I think I know the name of someone who will not be getting $250,000. Does this guy not notice that he is trying to claim an award that is designed to be unclaimable regardless of the truth of the issue?

10-01-2002, 02:46 PM	#3
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Now all he needs to do is get hovind to agree with him, and then get hovinds panel of experts chosen by hovind to agree with him also. Oh yeah, and of course hovind reserves the right to never even submit this particular challenge to himself or his panel. I also doubt that this letter 'proves' to hovinds satisfaction that matter 'created itself', whatever that means, or that macroevolution is the 'only possible explanation'. Another thing I doubt is that hovind even has access to 250 000 dollars, unless it is currently holding together his legal defense funds. Personally I think it is a very good letter. The transition from grey wolves to small, exotic 'toy' dogs is my personal favourite proof of macroevolution.

10-01-2002, 03:45 PM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	It will be interesting to see KH's response. However, I suspect that it will be much like his response to someone who proposed polar bears as an example of evolution. Which was that polar-bear evolution does not count because polar bears are still bears.

10-01-2002, 03:55 PM	#5
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	His response will most likely be his typical drivel. 'Your wrong you stupid satanic tool of the NWO.' He's a riot... mostly because 'Doctor' Hovind writes at about a ninth grade level.... he's sort of like Ann Coulter without as much press.

10-01-2002, 04:34 PM	#7
Camaban Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 473	tgamble: That prediction is just freaky in its future accuracy... (But a bit more intelligent than previous responses he's made) [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Camaban ]</p>

10-01-2002, 05:02 PM	#8
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	Hmmm. I've had a 2 trillion dollar (US), offer on the proof of theism for a while now. I haven't awarded the prize yet. Must mean theism isn't true.

10-01-2002, 05:21 PM	#9
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	The biggest question remaining is: if Hovind uses that $250,000 to pay his defense lawyer, will the lawyer have to report it to Internal Revenue?

10-02-2002, 03:35 AM	#10
Silent Dave Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 2,209	John, keep us updated on where, if anywhere, this goes. Dave

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