faustuz

Isaiah 9:6 is a favorite of Christian apologists as an example of the OT prophesying the NT. I’m a little confused, though, about what happens when one puts it in context, i.e. of 9:5 and 9:7.

Isaiah 9:5 Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.

I must have missed that. In fact, I just saw a war on television last month, with lots of warrior’s boots and lots of bloody garments, and none of it fuel for any fire (ok, so maybe they helped fuel a few fires, but the “every” part still has a problem). It looks like this prophesy is yet to be fulfilled.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

I must have missed that too. Certainly the peace with no end part has yet to be fulfilled. In fact, I have trouble even perceiving the slight decrease in general violence of human against human that must have occurred 2000 years ago. Also, as far as I can tell David ruled over the land of Judea and some of the adjoining territory, but no more than that. As far as I can tell Jesus never ruled over this piece of land, and in fact it has remained for most of those 2000 years in the hands of non-believers. Of course the apologist will say this is symbolic, but it’s hard for me to see how the term “David’s kingdom” could possibly be considered symbolic in terms of the OT, where David was considered a real ruler with a real kingdom.

Maybe the apologist will claim that 5 and 7 refer to the second coming. If so, it seems like a bit of a non sequitor here. When read without commentary, it is pretty obviously a single prophesy. If 5 and 7 are yet to be fulfilled, then 6 is too. Therefore either the Jews are right, and we are still waiting for the Messiah, or the whole passage is useless.

Anyway, can somebody please point out what I’m missing here.

Thanks.

mark9950

If there was supposed to be a second coming the savior Jesus is 2000 years late and counting knowing he should have came in his generation.

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

Magus55

Wrong Mark. Haven't you learned not to present arguments criticizing the Bible when you have no freakin clue what you are talking about? Its Jesus describing to his disciples about the end times. When it says, this generation will not pass away, its referring to the generation that sees the end time signs, described in Matthew.

If you read the verses prior to this one, its discussing the end time events. Jesus is telling the disciples what to write, for the generation that experiences those signs to see. This generation means, "the generation that will experience those signs". Its not talking about the Apostles. Try reading in context next time.

Roland

"Truly I say to you, there are SOMEOF THOSE WHO ARE STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Mt 16:27,28.

Magus, I think Mark has the more accurate interpretation.

Spaz

That and saying that in the generation of the things happening won't end until the things happened is kinda redundant dontcha think?

Magus55

No, that is referring to Jesus' transfiguration, not His second coming.

Roland

Magus,

Since when is the transfiguration an example of Jesus "coming in His kingdom"?

Verse 16 27 says, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and He will reward each according to his works."

Where in the transfiguration scene does Jesus "reward each according to his works"? That sure sounds like the Final Judgment to me. And how can Jesus "come in the glory of His Father" when He's already standing there on earth? Where is he "coming" from?

This is the End Times Jesus is referring to.

SimplyAtheistic

[sarcasm]
Ok, you obviously misinterpreted this entire passage. This referring to the knowledge coming to man. The Son of Man is an obvious symbol for christianity, it will come in the glory of his father, and since Jesus is the base for christianity, he is the father. Therefore christianity comes in the glory of its founder. His angels refers to the people who spread christianity. And the reward is the knowledge of christ and heaven. Seriously, read the verse in context, any idiot can see that.
[/sarcasm]
Ok, just trying to play a christian for a while, kinda makes the mind hurt.
Jake

YHWHtruth

When four apostles seated with Jesus on the Mount of Olives heard his prophecy about "the conclusion of the system of things," how would they understand the expression "this generation"? In the Gospels the word "generation" is translated from the Greek word ge·ne·a´, which current lexicons define in these terms: "Lit[erally] those descended fr[om] a common ancestor." (Walter Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) "That which has been begotten, a family; . . . successive members of a genealogy . . . or of a race of people . . . or of the whole multitude of men living at the same time, Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48; 21:32; Phil. 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period." (W. E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) "That which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family; . . . the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt. xxiv. 34; Mk. xiii. 30; Lk. i. 48 . . . used esp[ecially] of the Jewish race living at one and the same period."-J. H. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

Thus Vine and Thayer both cite Matthew 24:34 in defining "this generation" (he ge·ne·a´ hau´te) as "the whole multitude of men living at the same time." The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (1964) gives support to this definition, stating: "The use of 'generation' by Jesus expresses his comprehensive purpose: he aims at the whole people and is conscious of their solidarity in sin." Truly a "solidarity in sin" was apparent in the Jewish nation when Jesus was on earth, just as it marks the world system today.

Of course, Christians studying this matter guide their thinking primarily by how Jesus used the Greek expression he ge·ne·a´ hau´te, or "this generation." He used it consistently in a negative way. Thus, he called the Jewish religious leaders "serpents, offspring of vipers" and went on to say that the judgment of Gehenna would be executed on "this generation." (Matthew 23:33, 36) However, was this judgment limited to the hypocritical clergy? Not at all. On a number of occasions, Jesus' disciples heard him speak of "this generation," applying the term uniformly in a far wider sense. What was that?


In 31 C.E., during Jesus' great Galilean ministry and shortly after the Passover, his disciples heard him say to "the crowds": "With whom shall I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who cry out to their playmates, saying, 'We played the flute for you, but you did not dance; we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief.' Correspondingly, John [the Baptizer] came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of man [Jesus] did come eating and drinking, still people say, 'Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'" There was no pleasing those unprincipled "crowds"!-Matthew 11:7, 16-19.

Later in 31 C.E., as Jesus and his disciples set out on their second preaching tour of Galilee, "some of the scribes and Pharisees" asked Jesus for a sign. He told them and "the crowds" who were present: "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. . . . That is how it will be also with this wicked generation." (Matthew 12:38-46) Obviously, "this wicked generation" included both the religious leaders and "the crowds" who never came to appreciate the sign that was fulfilled in Jesus' death and resurrection.

After the Passover of 32 C.E., as Jesus and his disciples came into the Galilean region of Magadan, the Sadducees and the Pharisees again asked Jesus for a sign. He repeated to them: "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah." (Matthew 16:1-4) Those religious hypocrites were indeed most reprehensible as leaders among the unfaithful "crowds" whom Jesus condemned as "this wicked generation."

Toward the end of his Galilean ministry, Jesus called the crowd and his disciples to him and said: "Whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him." (Mark 8:34, 38) So the masses of unrepentant Jews of that time obviously made up "this adulterous and sinful generation." Some days later, after Jesus' transfiguration, Jesus and his disciples "came toward the crowd," and a man asked him to heal his son. Jesus commented: "O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with you? How long must I put up with you?"-Matthew 17:14-17; Luke 9:37-41.

It was likely in Judea, after the Festival of Booths in 32 C.E., "when the crowds were massing together" around Jesus, that he repeated his condemnation of them, saying: "This generation is a wicked generation; it looks for a sign. But no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah." (Luke 11:29) Finally, when the religious leaders brought Jesus to trial, Pilate offered to release him. The record says: "The chief priests and the older men persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas, but to have Jesus destroyed. . . . Pilate said to them: 'What, then, shall I do with Jesus the so-called Christ?' They all said: 'Let him be impaled!' He said: 'Why, what bad thing did he do?' Still they kept crying out all the more: 'Let him be impaled!'" That "wicked generation" was demanding Jesus' blood!-Matthew 27:20-25.

A "faithless and twisted generation," egged on by its religious leaders, thus played a key part in bringing about the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fifty days later, at Pentecost in 33 C.E., the disciples received holy spirit and started to speak in different tongues. Upon hearing the sound, "the multitude came together," and the apostle Peter addressed them as "men of Judea and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem," saying: "This man [Jesus] . . . you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with." How did some of those listeners react? "They were stabbed to the heart." Peter then called on them to repent. He "bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: 'Get saved from this crooked generation.'" In response, about three thousand "embraced his word heartily [and] were baptized."-Acts 2:6, 14, 23, 37, 40, 41.


What, then, is the "generation" so frequently referred to by Jesus in the presence of his disciples? What did they understand by his words: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur"? Surely, Jesus was not departing from his established use of the term "this generation," which he consistently applied to the contemporary masses with their "blind guides" who together made up the Jewish nation. (Matthew 15:14) "This generation" experienced all the distress foretold by Jesus and then passed away in an unequaled "great tribulation" on Jerusalem.-Matthew 24:21, 34.

In the first century, Jehovah was judging the Jewish people. Repentant ones, who came to exercise faith in Jehovah's merciful provision through Christ, were saved out of that "great tribulation." True to Jesus' words, all things prophesied occurred, and then the "heaven and earth" of the Jewish system of things-the entire nation, with its religious leaders and wicked society of people-passed away. Jehovah had executed judgment!-Matthew 24:35; compare 2 Peter 3:7.

Those Jews who had paid attention to Jesus' prophetic words realized that their salvation depended, not on trying to calculate the length of a "generation" or of some dated "times or seasons," but on keeping separate from the evil contemporary generation and zealously doing God's will. Though the final words of Jesus' prophecy apply to the major fulfillment in our day, first-century Jewish Christians also had to heed the admonition: "Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."-Luke 21:32-36; Acts 1:6-8.

Max