Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hezekiah jones · 06-07-2002, 07:26 AM

<a href="http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/1110/6-7-2002/20020607003005_09.html" target="_blank">Judge: Amish Sect Must Use Triangles</a>

Quote:

A judge has ruled that an ultraconservative Amish congregation must use orange-and-red reflective triangles on their buggies despite arguments by the group that gaudy decorations violate their beliefs.

[...]

Donna Doblick, the Pittsburgh attorney representing the Amish for the American Civil Liberties Union, said she'll appeal the ruling to Pennsylvania Superior Court. The fines were suspended until the appeal is heard.

[...]

Cambria County Judge Timothy Creany ruled that Pennsylvania can abridge the Swartzentruber's religious beliefs because it has a "compelling interest" - namely, keeping the Amish and other vehicles safe on public roads.

[...]

"This court, however, does not have legislative authority and ... (if) change is to be had it must come from the legislative arm of government," Creany wrote.

<a href="http://www.amishwebportal.com" target="_blank">Gaudily Decorated Pennsylvania Amish Website</a>

pug846 · 06-07-2002, 08:40 AM

I actually don't know that I have all that much of a problem with this type of ruling. Public safety is an important issue...thoughts anyone?

scigirl · 06-07-2002, 08:45 AM

Are there any reflective pieces that aren't orange? i.e. a way to compromise?

I say, public safety should override religious freedom. Sometimes people need protection. . . from themselves.

scigirl

Toto · 06-07-2002, 09:14 AM

Previous thread mentioning this:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000052&p=" target="_blank">Jesus and Building Permits</a>

Dr. Dino was trying to avoid the necessity of a building permit for his theme park (the requirement for a building permit is based on the need for public safety.) He argued that the Amish are exempt from safely laws, so he should be also.

That Amish web site does tend to undermine their case, unless it is just a ploy by the local chamber of commerce.

Buffman · 06-07-2002, 10:56 AM

scigirl

I say, public safety should override religious freedom. Sometimes people need protection. . . from themselves.

IMO, this would make a wonderful issue for discussion. It can be easily tied to the "National Security Interest" type excuses used to cover a plethora of leadership greed, power plays and misdeeds that endanger, rather than secure, lives and liberty.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-memo-110801.html" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-memo-110801.html</a>

How does not wearing a seat belt threaten public safety? Is public safety threatened if you do not have mud flaps on your vehicle? How does polygamy threaten public safety? Who decides which individuals need protection from themselves? (Psychiatrists or politicians?) How does euthanasia impact on public safety? How does placing one of the biblical Decalogues, or "In God We Trust," in all the public buildings increase our safety/liberty?

Is it the responsibility and business of government to protect people from themselves? Does promoting the general welfare ever conflict with securing the blessings of liberty? This current government claims that placing one's faith in God/Jesus is required to protect us from ourselves...and everyone else. Obviously the Murrah Building bombing and 9/11 proved what a crock that is.

trunks2k · 06-07-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Previous thread mentioning this:

Dr. Dino was trying to avoid the necessity of a building permit for his theme park (the requirement for a building permit is based on the need for public safety.) He argued that the Amish are exempt from safely laws, so he should be also.

Dmanit I was gonna mention that! I see this as no different than the state inspecting Dr Dino's theme park and telling him he has to have a building permit. It's all about public safety. I think the first amendment runs out when it comes to general public safety. If the amish are on public roads, they have to have consideration for the safety of the people wizzing by in the cars. Once they are on their own land, where there are no cars or the like, then they don't need to use the orange triangles. This is one of the cases in which I disagree with the ACLU.

Toto · 06-07-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:


Is it the responsibility and business of government to protect people from themselves?

Let's keep things on church-state separation here, or take a general discussion of this to the politics forum.

gallo · 06-07-2002, 11:25 AM

According to the article, the Amish are willing to use (and in fact do use) gray reflective tape and hang a lantern on their buggies. The tape is easily visible at night. We wore it in Thule on the back, front and both arms of our parka's. When nothing else was visible, you could see that tape by the lights of a vehicle.

Toto · 06-07-2002, 11:38 AM

I think the state is concerned about visibility during the day, when the reflecting tape does not work well.

Thomas Cassidy · 06-07-2002, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gallo:
According to the article, the Amish are willing to use (and in fact do use) gray reflective tape and hang a lantern on their buggies. The tape is easily visible at night. We wore it in Thule on the back, front and both arms of our parka's. When nothing else was visible, you could see that tape by the lights of a vehicle.

I agree. I have been a motorcyclist for over 41 years (and a former military pilot). The best defense against accidents is conspicuity, IE, make sure others see you! I have tried several types of reflective tape on my helmets, red, yellow, orange, blue, etc., and have found the light grey reflective tape is most noticeable in all conditions. My present helmets all have light grey tape on the sides and back.

I suspect this is another case of a state legislature passing a law requiring a certain color of reflector without doing any research to see what color shows up best. Remember when all fire trucks were red? Now most are yellow, white, or light grey (at least around here). Why? Because red is a very hard color to see under most lighting conditions! Remember the old fire exit signs? The law stated they had to be red. But, in a fire, everything is red and the exit signs blended into the ambient lighting. Now exit signs (again, around here) are either light green or light grey. Why? Conspicuity! Those colors show up much better!

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06-07-2002, 08:40 AM	#2
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	I actually don't know that I have all that much of a problem with this type of ruling. Public safety is an important issue...thoughts anyone?

06-07-2002, 08:45 AM	#3
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Are there any reflective pieces that aren't orange? i.e. a way to compromise? I say, public safety should override religious freedom. Sometimes people need protection. . . from themselves. scigirl

06-07-2002, 09:14 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Previous thread mentioning this: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000052&p=" target="_blank">Jesus and Building Permits</a> Dr. Dino was trying to avoid the necessity of a building permit for his theme park (the requirement for a building permit is based on the need for public safety.) He argued that the Amish are exempt from safely laws, so he should be also. That Amish web site does tend to undermine their case, unless it is just a ploy by the local chamber of commerce.

06-07-2002, 10:56 AM	#5
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	scigirl I say, public safety should override religious freedom. Sometimes people need protection. . . from themselves. IMO, this would make a wonderful issue for discussion. It can be easily tied to the "National Security Interest" type excuses used to cover a plethora of leadership greed, power plays and misdeeds that endanger, rather than secure, lives and liberty. <a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-memo-110801.html" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/11/ag-memo-110801.html</a> How does not wearing a seat belt threaten public safety? Is public safety threatened if you do not have mud flaps on your vehicle? How does polygamy threaten public safety? Who decides which individuals need protection from themselves? (Psychiatrists or politicians?) How does euthanasia impact on public safety? How does placing one of the biblical Decalogues, or "In God We Trust," in all the public buildings increase our safety/liberty? Is it the responsibility and business of government to protect people from themselves? Does promoting the general welfare ever conflict with securing the blessings of liberty? This current government claims that placing one's faith in God/Jesus is required to protect us from ourselves...and everyone else. Obviously the Murrah Building bombing and 9/11 proved what a crock that is.

06-07-2002, 11:25 AM	#8
gallo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 244	According to the article, the Amish are willing to use (and in fact do use) gray reflective tape and hang a lantern on their buggies. The tape is easily visible at night. We wore it in Thule on the back, front and both arms of our parka's. When nothing else was visible, you could see that tape by the lights of a vehicle.

06-07-2002, 11:38 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think the state is concerned about visibility during the day, when the reflecting tape does not work well.

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