Waning Moon Conrad

In my (always humble) opinion, the Russian Orthodox Church has got it right. They do their rituals as they have always done, in 10th century Slavonic, they've rebuilt their churches and cathedrals complete with icons etc and they're training choirs.

The music is absolutely ravishing, the churches are visually splendid and I swear, if I was going to be a Christian, Russian Orthodox would be the denomination I'd choose.

Young people in Russia are flocking back to it in their droves.

I've always thought that religious expression through ritual should be not be dragged down to the level of top ten pop charts. I well remember poppy rock music at church when I was a catholic teenager and it turned me off.

I suspect that there are many more people like me who feel that a religious service should be a thing of beauty and gravity. The rituals of a church should be timeless, ageless, beyond fashion, beyond cheap commerciality and the repulsive, patronizing dumb down. The music should be chosen for its beauty and artistic merit as something worthy of use in the worship of an omnipotent creator (not that I necessarily believe in one).

I honestly think that if the Pope were to look at the Russian Orthodox church he might realize why the Catholic church is dying.

It's dying of cheapness, tackiness, fashionability and mediocritization.

alek0

Do you really think that people in former communist countries are flocking back to church because it is splendid, ravishing etc.?

You are of course aware that religious revival is not restricted to Orthodox church in these countries? Look at Croatia, look at Poland etc.
Nowadays it is fashionable to be religious in those places. Part of it may be due to showing that you are not a communist by going to church.
Part of it may also be that life in former eastern countries is not exactly easy in this transition period (except for politicians and criminals).

As for Orthodox Church being somehow better than Catholic church, I don't think that being conservative and unchanging is a good thing. Eastern orthodox churches are not likely to perform a wedding if both are not eastern orthodox. One who isn't either has to convert or to promise to raise children in orthodox faith.

Not to mention attitude towards women. I have attended baptisms of couple of my friends and it made me sick to hear the priest. He was harping so much on how women don't want to have kids for selfish reasons, they should have more kids and stay ta home, so that our country could gain back its former glory. Blech. Splendid, ravishing, isn't it?

Though I admit music can be beautiful. So can be music in catholic cathedrals. I don't see how Orthodox christianity is any better than other denominations. It is all more or less the same thing.

Thor Q. Mada

I agree with alex0. Its all the same bunk. And if you want to be impressed by great shows of pomp, we can arrange for that. Go to an opera in Moskou and that is what you will get. Also we shouldn't forget that the reformation (which didn't happen in Russia) was a reaction against abuse of all kind by the church, inclusive but not limited to the shows of splendour and pomp, while the general population had no money.
To see these orthodox priests with the fuzzy beards with doubtfull hygienic habits with flies circling above them perform rites the reason for which nobody knows anymore, makes my stomach turn.
I cannot believe that after 80 years of atheism, people still flock to this kind of spectacle.
The communists surely did a bad educational job!!

Marduk

"I cannot believe that after 80 years of atheism, people still flock to this kind of spectacle.
The communists surely did a bad educational job!!"


They made religion forbidden therefore making it attractive.

BobDobbs

I dislike this elitist attitude. A musician that works hard at his or her craft should not be looked down upon because of the instrument that he or she chooses to play.

King's X is a Christian band, and one of the most respected and renowned bands in the realm of progressive rock. Dream Theater also occasionally has Christian / spiritual overtones to their music. Their musicianship is without peer, as its members are all either Berklee or Juliard graduates. Spock's Beard's last (and in my opinion), greatest album, Snow is more or less an allegory for the life of Jesus Christ. The fact that their expression takes a different form doesn't make it worth any less than 'traditional' Christian music.

Those 'poppy rock' musicians were playing in a church to pay homage to something they considered special, close, and dear to their heart, in a way that meant a lot to them. In my opinion their church was doing well for itself by allowing its members to express themselves in the musical context of their own lives, not using rituals and music that no longer hold meaning.

People demonize the Catholic church for its adherence to outdated doctrines regarding birth control and its treatment of women. Why do you now demonize it for its non-adherence to traditional music that many people find well, kinda boring?

You are listening to the wrong music. Not all modern music is made by no-talent hacks.

Nikolai

Ah, I was wondering if it was just me or if they were indeed adding Christian elements to their music. Have you listened to their last album, "Six Degrees of Inner Torbulence", which had that song about stem cell research? I though it was well made but a little too much pro-life, though it seemed they tried to make it neutral.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand the Russian church, from my first-hand experience, more often then not goes overboard with its conservative stance. For example, it still uses ancient Russian in its service which almost noone understand. And they recently will not change the date of Christmas, even though the public wishes to celebrate it on the 25th. This has caused a large number of new members for the Catholic church in Russia.

Is it the job of the government to give a religious, or an anti-religious, education?

BobDobbs

Yea, the song lyrics of 'The Great Debate' on SDoIT seem to lean toward the anti end of things a little bit, (cleverly enough, you'll notice that the 'pro' stem cell research sound clips come from the left speaker, while the 'anti' clips come from the right speaker). The lyrics themselves are a bit judgemental, and make assumptions about the status of fetuses ("Are we justified, in taking life to save life?")

Other songs, such as 'Surrounded' off of Images and Words and the entirety of Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory deal with spiritual themes. The album photographs of the band generally show one or more of them wearing the cross necklaces ubiquitous among Christians, therefore their religious vewpoint is seemingly unquestionable, although some of the lyrics from Awake seem to indicate a displeasure with some typical church doctrine. The same is true of King's X, a more overtly religious band. They effectively skewer televangelists in Mission

Oh well, didn't mean to hijack this thread. I just always enjoy discussing good music!

Bree

Even as an atheist, I do enjoy going to an "old-fashioned" Mass. Much of the world's great classical music was written to accompany religious ceremonies and pay homage to God. I love hearing a Mass sung in Latin, or hearing Bach's B minor Mass being performed. There's nothing quite as breath-taking as some of Handel's oratorios; couple The Messiah with flying buttresses and stained glass rose windows, and you've got a truly awe-inspiring combination...even if you're not particularly religious.

Waning Moon Conrad

All of your feedback is welcome. I do still think though, that leaving out the theology and teachings which I for one don't believe in, the Russian orthodox church's successful revival is largely because of the aesthetic impact of the occassions.

Proving that you're not a communist as a motive for church going is one I hadn't thought of. Not one that I could have ever conceived of but then I have never had to suffer under a totalitarian regime or feel the pressure to prove that I am am not anything in particular. It could well be the case with many of them.

They can shove their attitude to women as far I'm concerned.

Of course music in Catholic Cathedrals is magnificent. Most of my favourite composers, wrote for the catholic church. It doesn't alter the fact that many catholic churches (if not the cathedrals) don't use the aural treasure at their disposal.

Mind you I could be wrong on this one! I have been wrong once before in my life, an occassion when I thought I'd made a mistake.

The fact is I haven't been to mass for so long that I wouldn't have a clue what they' ve been playing for the last twenty years. I was basing my assumption on a single mass I remember from my teenage years.

People are welcome to their own tastes in music, religious or otherwise. When it comes to sacred music, my attitude will remain, people can call it elitist if they wish.

lpetrich

I think that a lot of people like magnificent-sounding gibberish, like a Latin Mass or a Russian Orthodox service in Old Chuch Slavic (my guess on what it likely is -- it's an old Bulgarian dialect). I've seen the same thing in some people's fondness for King James English.

And as to the date of Christmas, that's because they are sticking to the old Julian calendar, instead of the Gregorian one; they evidently prefer that pagan, Julius Caesar, to the Pope.