YourNeonGod

My first question, is what existed before God created anything?

I am assuming nothing, outside of God. Everything which existed at that point, was God. I assume this, because if anything else existed, it would be without Gods creation, which places it as a separate entity. For if God is eternal, then it must also be.

This leads me to question whether God could create outside of himself. When he chose to create the Universe, the Cosmos, the Planets, Human beings, where were they placed, to create separation neccesary for individualism, neccesary for Humans to have free will, to be separate entities from God?

I imagine God could have created space, empty space, void, in which to have placed it all. But where, would he place this empty void?

The only conclusion I can come to, is that he must have placed it within himself. Meaning that the things of which he has created, cannot logically have separation from him.

And, what did God create with? If he created from nothingness, it still took the cause of him creating. Meaning he is the raw material. There is no other, because of the problems it created.

Given this, it seems logical to me that Pantheism follows, that all that is created is in fact God. And to continue in that idea, Solipism follows.

For if everything is God, there is no thinking, reasoning being outside of him. So each existing thing which believes it thinks as an individual, is just another part of God. Which causes all Human action to be valueless; for a human cannot be harmed, by harming a human, God is just harming himself, in the same sense that he rewards himself.

What are your thoughts?

Darth Dane

Wauw, that sounds about right. Wonderfully explained.

Hence choose Love



DD - Love Spliff

yguy

I'm not sure the question has meaning, since God created time.

The question makes no sense. By creating the space, He created the where.

This appears to assume that any object contains all of God's essence. First of all, that would preclude His ability to withdraw His essence from any particular bit of the universe - most especially from a bit of the universe occupied by a being who wanted nothing to do with Him. Second, it appears to me that, at the very least, a man has more of God's essence than a rock; so that it appears His essence is not apportioned uniformly.

Jobar

Hello, YourNeonGod; neat name.

I think the Hindus beat you to this idea by several millenia, but it still makes more sense than the monotheistic idea of a God who is separate from his creation. And there is some difficulty in using the word God here, because traditional theists, like yguy, will claim that God *is* wholly other than creation.

Other than that, though, and of course the fact that there is no way (that I can see) to actually prove your theory, it's a good one. It doesn't suffer from the Problem of Evil, at least!

Infidelettante

Originally posted by YourNeonGod
My first question, is what existed before God created anything?

Along with yguy I think this question is meaningless. There can be no before untill space/time exists.

Given this, it seems logical to me that Pantheism follows, that all that is created is in fact God. And to continue in that idea, Solipism follows.

I would say that you've detailed the path that many of us have taken to Pantheism. There can be nothing outside the Divine. [Forgive me for Divine as opposed to God. So much less loaded a term I think] All things exist as expressions of the Divine. As for Solipism, I guess such a Divinity would recognize only its' own existence.

Problems arise when we try to hold the universe and the Divine as separate concepts. Creation is Divine. We get tripped up by our theist culture to separate the creation from the Creator when there is really no good reason to. The theists have to because otherwise no one would go to hell and that just won't do.

For if everything is God, there is no thinking, reasoning being outside of him. So each existing thing which believes it thinks as an individual, is just another part of God. Which causes all Human action to be valueless; for a human cannot be harmed, by harming a human, God is just harming himself, in the same sense that he rewards himself.

What are your thoughts?

There is no need for a Pantheist to attribute any personal characteristics to the Divine that conflict with the individual. We can accept that all things are connected within the Divine but that connectedness in no way interferes with free will. If you choose to harm yourself or another you can't wiggle out by saying "God made me do it."

JT

Jinto

There's one catch I have with pantheism - if God = that which is, then what is the difference between pantheism and atheism?

Violent Messiah

Jinto:

Pantheism = all is God

Atheism = No God. The Universe just is. No creator necessary. Retains a naturalistic view that the Universe created itself.

Darth Dane

If God is everything as you say, then there is no outside, God is eternal and infinite. Like Pi evolving in ever larger spirals, through the golden whatchamacallit.

I know it sounds like deja vu...

If you are in fact only talking to yourself, then it follows as Jesus thought, that we should Love our neighbor as we Love ourselves, because when you Love your neighbor you are Loving yourself, your true self



Don't be so hasty in doing your own thing, do what you think all of God should be doing, minding their own business?


But this is depending the what if thing.




DD - Love Spliff

Infidelettante

I struggle with that question. I think of the Universe as living. This living Universe I call Divine. The Divine encompasses all things. It contains all things. It is all things.

What I stuggle with is the belief that the Divine is more than all things. An aspect of it goes beyond what we experience. Or, we can experience the Divine in ways that are beyond understanding if ours is a purely material universe. The Divine is ineffable. It can't be expressed. But it can be experienced.

I use deities in a metaphorical sense. They are the ineffable aspect that is beyond me yet is a connectedness with creation which allows me to take part in that creation. I experience the Divine through them. The universe has secrets and mysteries we may never know but which we can experiance through the practice of ritual and magic.

Is this a cop out to keep from throwing God out altogether? I don't think so. Anyway, I have no need for a personate God. I do not accept any evidence for God. I think of myself as an atheist and a pantheist. I guess then that pantheism and atheism can be the same thing for some of us.

Or else I'm really screwed up.

JT

Darth Dane

Did you say magic?


Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature St. Augustine.

For magicusers, it is not unnatural, it is natural as everything else is, when you know how.





DD - Love Spliff