The Other Michael

A comment in another thread prompted me to start this (after searching on key words in GRD and Philosophy and coming up NIF):

Doesn't the existance of prophets negate free will?

Yes, I'm aware of the problems an omniscient diety causes free will, so I'll skip that for the moment.

If there are all these cool prophesies in various religious tracts about things that will happen in the future, I fail to see how they can come true if all people have free will.

Maybe some people are denied free will in order to bring about the desired future state? Maybe people only have the illusion of free will (they are lied to about having it)? Maybe the secret is behind door number 3?

Beats me. It just appears that if Jesus is allegedly the successful fulfillment of a prophesy that Christians have a hard time squeezing free will into the picture (to justify our freely chosing to cast ourselves into eternal torment).

cheers,
Michael

Seraphim

Good topic.

I personally feel that Prophets should be treated as nothing more than a guide, he comes, he shows and he skips town to leave people to choose whether they wish to follow or not.

IF people are forced to follow a prophet, then it goes against the existence of free will since the "prophet" already choose the path for them to follow. This could be one of the difference between Arabic religions and those of other non-Arabic religions/teaching.

As for Prophesies, such things could be said to be exist but whether it shows that there existed pre-destined fate or not is not something I find it clear. Maybe in general terms, free will is for individual to struggle through life while the race is predestined for something else.

The Other Michael

Hi Seraphim,

I can't see how the racial predestination is going to be achieved if all elements making up the race have free will. Predestination (fulfilling a prophecy) would seem to entail something having to be determined, and one or more of those free-will-equipped individuals is going to have to do something predestined to bring about the prophecy.

It seemed like a facet of the free will topic I've not seen addressed. Maybe an omnipotent diety has no problems giving people free will but still constraining them to act as he wants. I suppose he could limit their free-will choices so that anything they chose will bring about the desired state.

But I've seen some theists in other threads (argument from evil stuff) pooh-pooh that as a possibility of how a god could have structured things to remove evil/suffering from the world and still leave free will.

cheers,
Michael

Seraphim

"I can't see how the racial predestination is going to be achieved if all elements making up the race have free will. Predestination (fulfilling a prophecy) would seem to entail something having to be determined, and one or more of those free-will-equipped individuals is going to have to do something predestined to bring about the prophecy."

My reply : OK, that's a good one. How does predestination to be fullfilled if individuals have free will but the whole race already predestined to fullfill something?

How about that instead of looking at God's (or whatever gave us this destiny) point of view and start looking at our own point of view?

1. Is the predestined fate is individual's fate or the fate of a race?
2. Why do we need a predestined fate?
3. When does everything that is predestined is fullfilled?
4. Why do God (or whatever) need to give us a free will in the first place?

In my opinion, answer is :
1. The predestined fate is that of the race, not individual one. I believe individual can chance his or her fate by sheer will and working hard on it.

2. We don't need a predestined fate. It is there because WE put it there in the first place. A society will go to the trash IF everyone in it behave like nuts. Golom and Saddom (not sure this is the proper name) in the Bible, are they destined to be destroyed by God because God destined it OR they place that fate on their heads?

3. When does something is fullfilled? When we fullfill a certain action.

Let me tell you about a person I know of. This person has dreams (not often, but maybe once or twice in a month, depends on his mental state - tired or not) where he dreams of the future events which will happens to him. He will wake up and have memories of it for the next few days. Surprisingly, the event he dreams of does happen in real life just as he dreamt it.

Now question - Knowing something that going to happen, will you be able to stop it from happening, only to have our actions be the same thing that prompt it to happen in the first place?

4. Maybe to change whatever that is predestined. In most religions and teaching (Yes, including Buddhism and Hindusm), there is always a prophesy of destructions which will occur in the future. Is it a warning of things to come, fate or simply our destiny to be wiped out? Maybe in the end, which is which will be determined by ourselves. I believe it is a warning and maybe we can change it.

"It seemed like a facet of the free will topic I've not seen addressed. Maybe an omnipotent diety has no problems giving people free will but still constraining them to act as he wants. I suppose he could limit their free-will choices so that anything they chose will bring about the desired state."

My reply : I don't think so. If there is such diety who gives limited free will while constrainting other, I could wonder why such diety could allows things like AIDS, sickness, destruction or even simply Atheism (lack of believe in the diety) to exist. He or she could bend the will of the human to believe in him/her and behave according to what He/She stated.

"But I've seen some theists in other threads (argument from evil stuff) pooh-pooh that as a possibility of how a god could have structured things to remove evil/suffering from the world and still leave free will."

My reply : In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna once said that there is no bad people and even the Asurans (who were Atheists) are His followers as well because when they (Asurans) curse Him, they still have to say His name.

Only Arabic religions defined who is good and who is not among the humans race, not ALL religions/teachings.

Hi back. Almost time to leave.

Buffman

(Please forgive this digression. No philosophical commentary on "Prophets vs free will." Merely a little amplification for Google searches and to help understand the history behind the importance to Christianity's need for ancient prophesy fulfillments.)

Synonyms: Phophet, Prophetess, Oracle, Forecaster, Seer, Soothsayer, Clairvoyant, Prognosticator, Fortuneteller, Augur, Diviner, Witch, Warlock, Sibyl, Haruspex, and Vaticinator.

Some historical background.

<a href="http://www.goddess.org/vortices/notes/cybele.html" target="_blank">http://www.goddess.org/vortices/notes/cybele.html</a>

(Extract)
The Jewish and Christian Sibylline Books are often referred to as the originals by Christians and Jews, but they originated after the destruction of the first Sibylline Books in 670 AUC (53 BCE). For the most part they are pure garbage, which like the Book of Daniel, were written as prophesy after the events had occurred. However, because of the symbolism of the Sibyls, carrying a lantern with serpent under her feet, the crown of thorns, the stone manger, the cross, and the banner which prophesied resurrection, Christians believed the Sibyls foretold the coming of Jesus. In a way they did. They foretold that his followers would destroy knowledge, an oracle that was all too true.
(End extract)


SIBYLS

(Comment: All the ancient Sibyls were female.)

<a href="http://www.1freespace.com/women/alexiares/Delphi/delphi.html" target="_blank">http://www.1freespace.com/women/alexiares/Delphi/delphi.html</a>

(Extracts)
The priestesses of Cybele shared a long heritage stretching back to Neolithic times, when their contemporaries were sometimes trepannedb. for spiritual purposes. Their work comes down to us as the foundation of astronomy, astrology, mathematics, measurement, and literature. The word 'mathematic' itself comes from a Chaldean word meaning 'learned mothers.' Such priestesses were known for their ability to predict eclipses.

There were ten particularly famous Sibyls: of Persia, Libya, Delphi, Samos, Kimmeria, Erythraea, Tiber, Marpessus, Phrygia, and Kumae. The Sibyl of Kumae was best known for the way she treated her prophecies, which she wrote on leaves and left outside of her cave to blow away if uncollected. She was the original high priestess of the Etruscans, and Rome made great efforts to claim her as their own so they could claim divine justification for the subjugation of Tuscany.
(End extracts)

<a href="http://www.bartleby.com/81/15320.html" target="_blank">http://www.bartleby.com/81/15320.html</a>

(Extract)
The mediæval monks reckoned twelve Sibyls, and gave to each a separate prophecy and distinct emblem:—
(End extract)

PROPHETS

(Comment: All the Judeo-Christian Prophets were male.)

<a href="http://www.touchet1611.org/ModernProphets.html" target="_blank">http://www.touchet1611.org/ModernProphets.html</a>

(Extract)
Summary
1) A prophet was someone who spoke for God. Their words were not their own, but the very words of God.
2) A prophet in the Old Testament was the same as a prophet in the New Testament. They both spoke for God and predicted the future.
3) A prophet is one who prophesies, and one who prophesies is a prophet. Those who went around prophesying all the time were prophets.
4) The Bible gives us two tests to detect false prophets. First, a prophet must be 100% accurate. They must never miss. Those who "make mistakes" are false prophets. Secondly, a prophet's message must be biblical. It must lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible - not into following a false God or into ERROR. Those who give a prophecy containing false doctrine are false prophets.
5) God is angry with those who claim to be speaking for Him that he did not send. Anyone who "presumptuously" claims to speak for God will be dealt with most severely by Him if they do not repent.
6) Prophecy was in part. That is - it was only a partial revelation of God's truth. When God's complete revelation in scripture came, there was no more need for that which was in part, and prophecy passed away.
7) The Bible contains many warnings to beware of false prophets. The Bible anticipated a time in which there would no longer be any prophets.
8) There are two sources of false prophecy: A) Evil spirits - who try to deceive people with supposed messages from God; and B) A person's own heart - either by making up the message or by mistaking their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.
(End extract)

[NOTE: I just fell in love with #3] <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

(Use hyperlinks in this next URL for further discussion.)

<a href="http://dannyreviews.com/h/Imperialism_and_Biblical_Prophecy.html" target="_blank">http://dannyreviews.com/h/Imperialism_and_Biblical_Prophecy.html</a>

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>