Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-11-2003, 10:49 AM

Meditating on War and Guilt, Zen Says It's Sorry

Westerners think of Zen Buddhism as a pacifist, compassionate religion. But it has roots in the warrior culture of the Samurais, and was a key part of the Japanese military machine during World War II.

Quote:

Traditionally, Zen stresses an inward search for understanding and mental discipline. But Mr. Victoria said that imperial military trainers developed the self-denying egolessness Zen prizes into "a form of fascist mind-control." He said Suzuki and others helped by "romanticizing" the tie between Zen and the warrior ethos of the samurai. Worse, he charges, they stressed a connection between Buddhist compassion and the acceptance of death in a way that justified collective martyrdom and killing one's enemies.

Answerer · 01-11-2003, 06:31 PM

Well, not everyone could understand the Dharma well enough or perfectly, so it isn't surprising that there will be some who will act differently and badly eventually. The good thing is they learn from their mistake unlike a few.

01-12-2003, 05:42 PM

Westerners think of Zen Buddhism as a pacifist, compassionate religion. But it has roots in the warrior culture of the Samurais, and was a key part of the Japanese military machine during World War II.

My reply : I always thought the moderators not supposed to get their hands dirty with discussions. I usually don't bother with Moderators' comments, but this one had Zen Buddhism tag to it.

Zen Buddhism did (and still is) linked to Samurais (nowadays, it's principles is used by Businessmen most of the time). In 1920 -50s, the spirit of Samurais were called to wage war on others. After the Japan's defeat in World War 2, many people came to understanding that Zen and its principles were missused by the Military in its quest to conquer others.

I know some people (Japanese) who are still remember the day of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and its lessons - that War is a bad thing. It is also why people in Japan disliked their prime minister's action when he went to the War Monument of soldiers who died in 1940s and pay his respect.

Toto · 01-13-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

My reply : I always thought the moderators not supposed to get their hands dirty with discussions. I usually don't bother with Moderators' comments, but this one had Zen Buddhism tag to it.

1. This is a misconception of the role of a moderator.

2. In any case, I am not a moderator in this forum. The administrators have not gotten the moderator tags straightened out yet.

3. I'm not sure if we disagree, or if you took offense at what I posted. Everytime a religious has contact with something that later proves embarrassing, followers claim that religion was misinterpreted. And it usually was. But then you have to wonder what the value of religion is if it is always being misinterpreted.

monkey mind · 01-13-2003, 09:59 AM

I'm not sure if what happened with Zen in Japan during those days can be called a misinterpretation of Buddhism. Meaning, I don't think they read Buddhist scriptures or practiced Zen and came up with militaristic interpretations. Rather, I think the climate in Japan in those days was already extremely imperialistic. I think the religion of the time could probably be better described as emperor worship rather than Buddhism.

I think this lead to the zen masters being strongly encouraged to adjust their teachigns to support and justify the emperor and the wars.

It is very good to see them apologizing. Obviously, if people won't admit to these horrible mistakes, nothing will be learnt.

I'm not a big fan of this website, but I liked this book review they had for a book about this topic:

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm

happyboy · 01-13-2003, 03:05 PM

it's always a shame seeing a religion as normally intellectual and self-analyzing as buddhism (in whatever form) use the same tired tactics monotheists have been using for centuries. sad, really.

happyboy

happyboy · 01-13-2003, 03:06 PM

but i guess this goes to show that ANY religion can be used to promote warfare, butchery, and whatever else the government wants at the moment.

go, religion!

happyboy

01-13-2003, 04:39 PM

From Toto
Moderator

3. I'm not sure if we disagree, or if you took offense at what I posted. Everytime a religious has contact with something that later proves embarrassing, followers claim that religion was misinterpreted. And it usually was. But then you have to wonder what the value of religion is if it is always being misinterpreted.

My reply : The 1st and 2nd reply is OK, just explaination, not need to add anything to something which is straightforward.

I don't disagree or offended by anything. But you seems to be blaming it on Zen Buddhism rather than the followers. Remember, anyone could misinterpret anything if it suits their needs.

By monkey mind

I'm not sure if what happened with Zen in Japan during those days can be called a misinterpretation of Buddhism. Meaning, I don't think they read Buddhist scriptures or practiced Zen and came up with militaristic interpretations. Rather, I think the climate in Japan in those days was already extremely imperialistic. I think the religion of the time could probably be better described as emperor worship rather than Buddhism.

I think this lead to the zen masters being strongly encouraged to adjust their teachigns to support and justify the emperor and the wars.

My reply : Yup, that sums it right. The Emperor and his image as descendant of Jimmu (the 1st Emperor of Japan) played a significant role in it.

That and the part that the military used Bushido (Warrior's Code) as a means of getting young people to fight and die for what they believed to be a good cause was another factor.

It is very good to see them apologizing. Obviously, if people won't admit to these horrible mistakes, nothing will be learnt.

My reply : But they been apologizing for too long already. They started apologizing around 1950s and it is now 2000 (about 60 years already) and they are still apologizing. I think it is about time Japan stop bowing to others for its past mistake, learn from it and continue forward.

By happyboy

but i guess this goes to show that ANY religion can be used to promote warfare, butchery, and whatever else the government wants at the moment.

go, religion!

My reply : Yes, true ... because God tries to educate bunch of monkeys (humans) on how to behave like civilized creatures while they attend to return to their barbaric nature to begin with (Sarcasm if you want to take it that way).

Answerer · 01-13-2003, 06:00 PM

Well, Zen certainly does not promote killing. And most people know this simple fact most of the time. At any rate, those Japanese did admit that they are wrong in their understanding of Zen teaching. So are we giving excuses? Of course not.

01-13-2003, 06:44 PM

Well, Zen certainly does not promote killing. And most people know this simple fact most of the time. At any rate, those Japanese did admit that they are wrong in their understanding of Zen teaching. So are we giving excuses? Of course not.

My reply : Not exactly ... Zen Buddhism (the old one which followed by the Ancient Japanese before 1900s, NOT the crap you read in the books nowadays) is something like Knight's Code in Midieval Times. It does allow killings, BUT only when the killing is necessary - for justice, self-defend or defending another (a person's Lord, territory or honor).

The reason Japanese are apologizing now is because they have forgotten the fact that Zen Buddhism and the Warrior's Code is for upholding Justice, NOT for sake of barbaric acts like which they showed from 1920s - 1940s.

In a way, I believe that Japanese are apologizing not only to others which they hurt but also to their own forefathers for forgetting their (the forefathers') wisdom and way of life.

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01-11-2003, 06:31 PM	#2
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Well, not everyone could understand the Dharma well enough or perfectly, so it isn't surprising that there will be some who will act differently and badly eventually. The good thing is they learn from their mistake unlike a few.

01-12-2003, 05:42 PM	#3
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Westerners think of Zen Buddhism as a pacifist, compassionate religion. But it has roots in the warrior culture of the Samurais, and was a key part of the Japanese military machine during World War II. My reply : I always thought the moderators not supposed to get their hands dirty with discussions. I usually don't bother with Moderators' comments, but this one had Zen Buddhism tag to it. Zen Buddhism did (and still is) linked to Samurais (nowadays, it's principles is used by Businessmen most of the time). In 1920 -50s, the spirit of Samurais were called to wage war on others. After the Japan's defeat in World War 2, many people came to understanding that Zen and its principles were missused by the Military in its quest to conquer others. I know some people (Japanese) who are still remember the day of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and its lessons - that War is a bad thing. It is also why people in Japan disliked their prime minister's action when he went to the War Monument of soldiers who died in 1940s and pay his respect.

01-13-2003, 09:59 AM	#5
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	I'm not sure if what happened with Zen in Japan during those days can be called a misinterpretation of Buddhism. Meaning, I don't think they read Buddhist scriptures or practiced Zen and came up with militaristic interpretations. Rather, I think the climate in Japan in those days was already extremely imperialistic. I think the religion of the time could probably be better described as emperor worship rather than Buddhism. I think this lead to the zen masters being strongly encouraged to adjust their teachigns to support and justify the emperor and the wars. It is very good to see them apologizing. Obviously, if people won't admit to these horrible mistakes, nothing will be learnt. I'm not a big fan of this website, but I liked this book review they had for a book about this topic: http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm

01-13-2003, 03:05 PM	#6
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	it's always a shame seeing a religion as normally intellectual and self-analyzing as buddhism (in whatever form) use the same tired tactics monotheists have been using for centuries. sad, really. happyboy

01-13-2003, 03:06 PM	#7
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	but i guess this goes to show that ANY religion can be used to promote warfare, butchery, and whatever else the government wants at the moment. go, religion! happyboy

01-13-2003, 04:39 PM	#8
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	From Toto Moderator 3. I'm not sure if we disagree, or if you took offense at what I posted. Everytime a religious has contact with something that later proves embarrassing, followers claim that religion was misinterpreted. And it usually was. But then you have to wonder what the value of religion is if it is always being misinterpreted. My reply : The 1st and 2nd reply is OK, just explaination, not need to add anything to something which is straightforward. I don't disagree or offended by anything. But you seems to be blaming it on Zen Buddhism rather than the followers. Remember, anyone could misinterpret anything if it suits their needs. By monkey mind I'm not sure if what happened with Zen in Japan during those days can be called a misinterpretation of Buddhism. Meaning, I don't think they read Buddhist scriptures or practiced Zen and came up with militaristic interpretations. Rather, I think the climate in Japan in those days was already extremely imperialistic. I think the religion of the time could probably be better described as emperor worship rather than Buddhism. I think this lead to the zen masters being strongly encouraged to adjust their teachigns to support and justify the emperor and the wars. My reply : Yup, that sums it right. The Emperor and his image as descendant of Jimmu (the 1st Emperor of Japan) played a significant role in it. That and the part that the military used Bushido (Warrior's Code) as a means of getting young people to fight and die for what they believed to be a good cause was another factor. It is very good to see them apologizing. Obviously, if people won't admit to these horrible mistakes, nothing will be learnt. My reply : But they been apologizing for too long already. They started apologizing around 1950s and it is now 2000 (about 60 years already) and they are still apologizing. I think it is about time Japan stop bowing to others for its past mistake, learn from it and continue forward. By happyboy but i guess this goes to show that ANY religion can be used to promote warfare, butchery, and whatever else the government wants at the moment. go, religion! My reply : Yes, true ... because God tries to educate bunch of monkeys (humans) on how to behave like civilized creatures while they attend to return to their barbaric nature to begin with (Sarcasm if you want to take it that way).

01-13-2003, 06:00 PM	#9
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Well, Zen certainly does not promote killing. And most people know this simple fact most of the time. At any rate, those Japanese did admit that they are wrong in their understanding of Zen teaching. So are we giving excuses? Of course not.

01-13-2003, 06:44 PM	#10
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Well, Zen certainly does not promote killing. And most people know this simple fact most of the time. At any rate, those Japanese did admit that they are wrong in their understanding of Zen teaching. So are we giving excuses? Of course not. My reply : Not exactly ... Zen Buddhism (the old one which followed by the Ancient Japanese before 1900s, NOT the crap you read in the books nowadays) is something like Knight's Code in Midieval Times. It does allow killings, BUT only when the killing is necessary - for justice, self-defend or defending another (a person's Lord, territory or honor). The reason Japanese are apologizing now is because they have forgotten the fact that Zen Buddhism and the Warrior's Code is for upholding Justice, NOT for sake of barbaric acts like which they showed from 1920s - 1940s. In a way, I believe that Japanese are apologizing not only to others which they hurt but also to their own forefathers for forgetting their (the forefathers') wisdom and way of life.

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