crocodile deathroll

I personally cannot possibly see how a zygote can have a "soul" or "consciousness". A zygote is not conscious its solitary cell has yet not even divided to be differentiated into the respective cell types like neurons. It will of course have the potential for consciousness but so will the unification of the 300 million other sperm, all of those will have the potential to generate a conscious human being at birth.

If you trace you life's history right to the time you were about to be fertilized but on this occasion I will fudge history and another one of those 300 million other sperm had fertilized that same egg instead, would you still exist?

Or to put it more simply, if your mother had partnered somebody else would you still exist?

I am just pointing out that a zygote has no more integrity to life than the hypothetical union of any sperm and egg anywhere and anywhen on Earth. Nor does even a bundle of cells in the form of an an embryo?

I someone tells you that an embryo is a child then ask them "can you remember when you were and embryo?"
than ask them "can you remember when you were a fetus"?. Then finally ask them "can you remember when you were a child?". They will remember that for sure, so there is obviously a very big difference. Then ask them "could they of known the difference to a history when some the other 300 million sperm had fertilized egg and a history when the fetus they were to become, was aborted?" It is equally true that they would no longer be capable of be able to remember being a fetus as they would be able remember being too separated gametes yet to fertilize before their mother and father had gotten into bed together.

crocodile deathroll

cricket

It's not simply their mother and father... it's their grandparents, great-grandparents, and on back through the countless generations.

cricket

One of my friends remembers even before that, when she was a spirit in the universe.

(har!)

Brad Messenger

I don't disagree with your conclusion that conciousness is an essential aspect of human worth and since embryos and early fetuses lack a brain, they are not as valuable as those who have a sense of their existence.

Still, all people cannot remember events that occurred before they were three. If you asked me if I remember how many people came to see me soon after being delivered, I could not answer you. So the ability to remember a state of existence is a poor indicator of when abortion is ethical. Conciousness and sensitivity to pain are main factors in determining the ethics of abortion at various stages of a pregnancy.

DMB

My extremely elderly parents-in-law have just entered a nursing home, where they are likely to live until they drop off their twigs. It's as nice as such a place could be, but still depressing, full as it is of people in various stages of decrepitude. One old chap I keep running into has completely lost his short-term memory and can't remember what happened 5 minutes ago. I think he's lost a lot of what made him a person, but there's still something there.

E_muse

The title of the thread is 'Would you know if you were Aborted?'

I take the title to raise the question as to whether or not an embryo or zygote is aware that it is being terminated. I hope this is right.

The question relates the issue of termination to conscious awareness which is interesting. In short, it is permissable to kill something if it is not aware that it is being killed?

As I'm starting to think about this I can see that it probably wouldn't be used as a defence of abortion.

For example, if someone is shot at point blank range whilst asleep they are probably unaware that they are being murdered! However, would we defend the murderer on these grounds? I don't think so!!

Technically speaking a sleeping person only has the potential for consciousness. Whilst asleep they are very unconscious. The same can be said of anyone under the influence of anaestetic.


If you trace you life's history right to the time you were about to be fertilized but on this occasion I will fudge history and another one of those 300 million other sperm had fertilized that same egg instead, would you still exist?

Again, this is a very interesting comment. However, it needs to be said that a human being is a 'bundle of cells'.

The issue is, we place value on certain combinations of cells and not others because they possess certain qualities.

Would they? Can you remember the first few moments that you were outside your mother's womb?

I would seriously question how self aware a baby is during its first few weeks of life. During this time it is basically driven by survival instincts.

Would it be permissable for a mother to request the termination of this life? No.

As has been said, I doubt very much whether most people could remember their first few weeks in the world.

I am interested by the arguement from self awareness.

Of course, if we widen the issue to include 'death row' we also see that people sometimes consider it acceptable to terminate a collection of cells which possesses all of those qualites which are essential to personhood.

Someone on death row is well aware that they are going to die.

The reason I raise this is simply to point out that the decision to terminate is driven by something other than awareness and much depends upon circumstances.

fromtheright

Crocodile,
Your argument from awareness is interesting. I sure hope that the pro-choice side deploys it but I suspect that they dare not make the argument that life deserves respect and protection from the moment of one's earliest memory. If I don't remember what I was doing on a particular day two years ago have I lost the right to protection by the state?

The Lone Ranger

Something to think about:

It's estimated that perhaps 70 - 80% of human conceptions are spontaneously aborted.

It seems to me that this makes "God" far and away the world's biggest abortionist.

--Michael

fromtheright

Ranger,
Now there's some real debate. Let's carry your analogy forward a few years in life: some people die with heart attacks so that gives us a license to kill others.

The Lone Ranger

fromtheright

I'm not sure I see your point.

My point in making the above post was simply to point out that if one believes in a God who governs the universe, then clearly he/she/it is the biggest abortionist of all. If one believes that abortion is tantamount to murder, therefore, it would seem to follow that this "God" is by far the biggest mass-murderer in history.

I did not give -- nor do I intend to at the moment -- any personal opinion regarding the morality of abortion.

Cheers,

Michael