Freethought & Rationalism Archive

repoman · 02-03-2003, 01:39 PM

look at this pic from an Italian newspaper. This is real bad! Also consider the animation from another discussion of the that showed the foam going mostly on the bottom side. So there might have been even bigger cracks on the bottom.

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/C...03/crepe.shtml

Maverick · 02-03-2003, 01:42 PM

One of the talking heads on I believe ABC mentioned that the early shuttle missions included a "tile repair kit". Any credence to this?

I have also heard conjecture that Endeavour could be launched on a week's notice.

Assuming these two items are true (big assumption I know), could they have sent Endeavour on a repair mission? They discovered the insulation issue on day 2, so they would have had a two to three week window to get up there and repair.

I'm with the Jimmy here. I can't believe there is no contingency plan for damage incurred during or after launch.

Maverick

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 01:58 PM

look at this pic from an Italian newspaper. This is real bad!

What is that picture? I definitely don't think it's the shuttle wing; if anything, it's the external fuel tank shortly after jettisoning.

And the insulation, to my understanding, did hit the underside of the wing and not the top of the wing, which I believe would have been nearly physically impossible for it to do.

repoman · 02-03-2003, 02:05 PM

I don't think it was the external fuel tank because the shuttle appeared at that time in a stable earth orbit. Wouldn't the fuel tank have long before detached? The angle seems a little strange though, it looks more like the right wing, but could be the left if the camera was askew.

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 02:14 PM

It's not a wing; the wings are white/black and don't have any protuberances like the one shown on that image. The external fuel tank is orange, and is not jettisoned until the orbiter reaches near-orbital altitude, IIRC about 52 miles above the surface of the earth.

See here.

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 02:28 PM

This is just about the best view the could get of the shuttle's wings in orbit on this mission, BTW:

Or if you can't see it, like I can't, go to here.

repoman · 02-03-2003, 02:31 PM

I guess I was probably wrong, Those patterns on the Shuttle's wings can't be squared with the picture. It is more likely that a washed out (by space lighting) orange fuel tanks has that shape. I really didn't think it releassed so high in the flight. Well, It wouldn't be the first time a newspaper jumped the gun.

However, is this a regular photo of the fuel tank during a shuttle flight? Also isn't a bit scary to see these cracks on the tank at all.

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 02:44 PM

One of the talking heads on I believe ABC mentioned that the early shuttle missions included a "tile repair kit". Any credence to this?

Never heard of it, but without EVA capabilities and extensive training, it would do little good. Note that there are 20,000 or so tiles on the shuttle, in a variety of sizes, shapes, and densities. So there's not one kind of tile to repair.

I have also heard conjecture that Endeavour could be launched on a week's notice.

I doubt if such a repair kit could have been made, the appropriate training performed, etc. in the limited amount of time. Such tasks on EVA are very difficult and require significant training to have hope of success.

Assuming these two items are true (big assumption I know), could they have sent Endeavour on a repair mission? They discovered the insulation issue on day 2, so they would have had a two to three week window to get up there and repair.

I'm with the Jimmy here. I can't believe there is no contingency plan for damage incurred during or after launch.

There was no way to really examine the underside of the shuttle to determine if there was damage, and if so where the damage was and the extent of the damage. That being the case, an engineering assessment was performed, which determined, based on what happened and past experiences, that there was little risk that significant damage was caused by the insulation.

I don't know what "contingency plans", if any, may be in place if it is known that significant damage was caused at launch, but realistically, on at least some missions, and for some types of damage, there's little that could be done. The astronauts understand, and are willing to take, these kinds of risk.

Note that we still don't know for sure if the launch incident is what led to the catastrophe.

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 02:50 PM

However, is this a regular photo of the fuel tank during a shuttle flight? Also isn't a bit scary to see these cracks on the tank at all.

I really have no idea of the provenance of that photo. I can't read Italian. It doesn't really look "right" to me; a bit too fuzzy for most space photos I've seen. And the cracks don't look right; they don't match the curvature of the tank, for one thing. And if it is a genuine photo, there's no proof that it's even a photo from this mission! I'm only guessing that, if it's anything, it's the external tank after jettison.

repoman · 02-03-2003, 05:38 PM

This is a more detailed photo of cracks, I have no idea what this structure could be. If this is NOT from the latest flight, I am gonna be real pissed!

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02-03-2003, 01:39 PM	#61
repoman Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,280	look at this pic from an Italian newspaper. This is real bad! Also consider the animation from another discussion of the that showed the foam going mostly on the bottom side. So there might have been even bigger cracks on the bottom. http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/C...03/crepe.shtml

02-03-2003, 01:42 PM	#62
Maverick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 6,367	One of the talking heads on I believe ABC mentioned that the early shuttle missions included a "tile repair kit". Any credence to this? I have also heard conjecture that Endeavour could be launched on a week's notice. Assuming these two items are true (big assumption I know), could they have sent Endeavour on a repair mission? They discovered the insulation issue on day 2, so they would have had a two to three week window to get up there and repair. I'm with the Jimmy here. I can't believe there is no contingency plan for damage incurred during or after launch. Maverick

02-03-2003, 01:58 PM	#63
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	look at this pic from an Italian newspaper. This is real bad! What is that picture? I definitely don't think it's the shuttle wing; if anything, it's the external fuel tank shortly after jettisoning. And the insulation, to my understanding, did hit the underside of the wing and not the top of the wing, which I believe would have been nearly physically impossible for it to do.

02-03-2003, 02:05 PM	#64
repoman Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,280	I don't think it was the external fuel tank because the shuttle appeared at that time in a stable earth orbit. Wouldn't the fuel tank have long before detached? The angle seems a little strange though, it looks more like the right wing, but could be the left if the camera was askew.

02-03-2003, 02:14 PM	#65
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's not a wing; the wings are white/black and don't have any protuberances like the one shown on that image. The external fuel tank is orange, and is not jettisoned until the orbiter reaches near-orbital altitude, IIRC about 52 miles above the surface of the earth. See here.

02-03-2003, 02:28 PM	#66
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This is just about the best view the could get of the shuttle's wings in orbit on this mission, BTW: Or if you can't see it, like I can't, go to here.

02-03-2003, 02:31 PM	#67
repoman Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,280	I guess I was probably wrong, Those patterns on the Shuttle's wings can't be squared with the picture. It is more likely that a washed out (by space lighting) orange fuel tanks has that shape. I really didn't think it releassed so high in the flight. Well, It wouldn't be the first time a newspaper jumped the gun. However, is this a regular photo of the fuel tank during a shuttle flight? Also isn't a bit scary to see these cracks on the tank at all.

02-03-2003, 02:44 PM	#68
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	One of the talking heads on I believe ABC mentioned that the early shuttle missions included a "tile repair kit". Any credence to this? Never heard of it, but without EVA capabilities and extensive training, it would do little good. Note that there are 20,000 or so tiles on the shuttle, in a variety of sizes, shapes, and densities. So there's not one kind of tile to repair. I have also heard conjecture that Endeavour could be launched on a week's notice. I doubt if such a repair kit could have been made, the appropriate training performed, etc. in the limited amount of time. Such tasks on EVA are very difficult and require significant training to have hope of success. Assuming these two items are true (big assumption I know), could they have sent Endeavour on a repair mission? They discovered the insulation issue on day 2, so they would have had a two to three week window to get up there and repair. I'm with the Jimmy here. I can't believe there is no contingency plan for damage incurred during or after launch. There was no way to really examine the underside of the shuttle to determine if there was damage, and if so where the damage was and the extent of the damage. That being the case, an engineering assessment was performed, which determined, based on what happened and past experiences, that there was little risk that significant damage was caused by the insulation. I don't know what "contingency plans", if any, may be in place if it is known that significant damage was caused at launch, but realistically, on at least some missions, and for some types of damage, there's little that could be done. The astronauts understand, and are willing to take, these kinds of risk. Note that we still don't know for sure if the launch incident is what led to the catastrophe.

02-03-2003, 02:50 PM	#69
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	However, is this a regular photo of the fuel tank during a shuttle flight? Also isn't a bit scary to see these cracks on the tank at all. I really have no idea of the provenance of that photo. I can't read Italian. It doesn't really look "right" to me; a bit too fuzzy for most space photos I've seen. And the cracks don't look right; they don't match the curvature of the tank, for one thing. And if it is a genuine photo, there's no proof that it's even a photo from this mission! I'm only guessing that, if it's anything, it's the external tank after jettison.

02-03-2003, 05:38 PM	#70
repoman Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,280	This is a more detailed photo of cracks, I have no idea what this structure could be. If this is NOT from the latest flight, I am gonna be real pissed!

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