Deputy42

queen-

women teaching...
i personally accept teaching from women everytime i goto class like many aspects of culture, i think pauls sentiments are a little antiquated. however during the time when it was written, it served a moral purpose, as i've explained earlier.

men and women....
the most obvious hormonal difference between men and women is that men's sexual hormone is testosterone and women is estrogen. if each hormone is classified under the same category (ie, sexual hormones), then the different effects of each are obvious. the effect of testosterone on the body ultimately leads affects a change in the body/mind whole. i fail to see the problem with this area.

the workplace.....
of course men and women can work together. two words: sexual harrassment. what started out as a seemingly innocuous idea(that being women shouldn't be scared to goto work because of sick perverts) has turned into an oppressive "dogma".

word meanings....
i like to think i know what dem thar word i'z bees usin. what specifically do you have a problem with?

ergon....
i talked about it above, and "objectivies" was a typo supposed to be "objectifies". ergon was the idea that objects have a cetain innate function. like a knife is best used for cutting, or a tv is best used for watching tv .

god is a man....
its a personal choice man. i think you all misundertood the discussion on "god being a man" most of that was meant to explain the bible reference and the times in which it was written. live and let live.

male role models.....
what is the importance of male role models? i suppose a the person who looks up to the role model gains a goal to shoot at, a guide on the way, and an opportunity be okay with being male.

paradoxical language and science......
quantum mechanics isn't alogical and anti-intuitive? a photon is a particle AND a wave?

arbitrary symbology....
lets debate it. what do you want to debate about it? you havent commented on the content of the post here my friend

arbitrary gravity......
if we are talking just about newton, the physics and the frame of refrence used to understand the principles are arbitrary. for you, if i were to jump off the building i would fall to my death, good night, darkness for ever. where as i would call it merely a change of address.

the sower...
i cant believe this metaphor has drawn so much criticism. a dude puts some semen into a woman, and 9 months later a baby pops out(simplistic i know but bear with), a farmer puts a seed into the ground and out pops some wheat. its a rather simple analogy, whats the problem.

science and wisdom...
ok, plato treats this very well and i'm sure many of you are familiar. i have already been ripped for "crying plato and running away" so i will explain. i would direct you to plato's apology, it is very concise. here it is in short.....

the oracle tells socrates that he is the wisest man alive. s(socrates) thinks he is not wise and this is crap and goes around trying to disprove the the oracle. he tests everyone one around for wisdom. he starts with the people that one would think would be the wisest....politicians, sophists(teachers of wisdom), etc. these people he find lacking in wisdom because they talk about many things but when pressed always come to a contradiction in their thoughts. then he goes to carpenters and people who know a craft. these too are found deficient because while they only talk about things they know (their craft) but this is all they know and they also center their knowledge around their craft. so s asserts that he is wise only insofar that he knows what he knows, or the limit of his knowledge. to socrates and plato there wisdom lies in knowledge. most people reside in the realm of false knowledge. socrates was was among men because he had no false knowledge, this is "human wisdom" then the greatest knowledge is the that which leads to the excellent human life. that is wisdom

Deputy42

ip-

im not saying that a perpetual motion machine is possible. the purpose, again taken out of context, of that reference was used to illustrate a different point. IF such a car existed, the effect it would have on the economy would be drastic and largely unpredictable; that was the point of the reference. a radical and possibly destructive truth, while in the end proving positive, might be better of not said until people are ready to hear. ahhhh, that didn't come out well, but i've been doing this all day

ip- you are made up of atoms, which are totally physical. you cannot escape physical laws, you are a cog in a machine....its truth, but is it beneficial to tell that to a child?

Queen of Swords

A moral purpose? To make sure that husbands don't feel inadequate? I've heard Paul's dictates defended on the basis of practicality - that it would be disruptive to have women shouting out in church - but this is the first time I've heard that it was moral for women not to teach, lest they make their husbands feel less masculine.

So tell me, if a woman living in Paul's time didn't have a husband who might be embarassed, would it then be moral for her to teach?

What about progesterone?

Please state what they are specifically.

Describe the nature of this change, providing references to back up your claim that it affects the "body/mind whole".

Again, you fail to define the "dogma" to which you allude. Also, are you stating that sexual harrassment is a reason why women and men should not be allowed to work together?

That and the fact that you never defined "dogma" when used in the context of "equality of the sexes".

Do you believe that a child raised (for example) by a single mother doesn't have all that? By the way, given that you add "okay with being male", this implies that girls do not need a male role model.

How is this a paradox, if a photon can be converted from a wave to a particle? (correct me if I'm wrong here)

There's nothing to debate if it's arbitrary.

Please don't refer to me as your friend.

Well, you learn something new every day.

If you think that's all the farmer does in order to get a harvest, you know even less about agriculture than you apparently do about human reproduction.

It's one of the sillier analogies I've ever heard - and I notice you don't address the fact that women contribute more than men towards the developing fetus.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

Deputy42

read any piece of literature written only 2000 years ago....what are the chances there will be cultural references you wont understand? what are the chances that evaluated critically by todays standards, it will appear morally difficient and antiquated and archaic?

Deputy42

queen-

im sorry to have made the mistake of referring to you as a friend. i will not make that mistake again, i apologize. (i can FEEL the love in this room)

i think unmarried women in the church, according to the law, were to have spiritual advisors such as their brother, uncle, etc.

i don't know about progesterone, instruct me. as far as effects of testosterone on mind/body. steriods are synthetic male hormone. users of steroids experience metal and physical changes. muscle mass increases and on the whole the users are more aggressive. body/mind

men and women....
of course i think men and women can work together...i said it earlier. the "dogma" of sexual harrassment is embodied in the corporate policies on the subject that resemble war and peace.

typos...
sorry man, i'll try to type with less errors any more problems?

role models...
thought you agreed with me...maybe that was someone else. of course mothers can be role models. i think role models teach young people how to be adults. a woman can show a young boy how to be a good member of society. i'm not sure whether she can show him how to be a man per se.

quantum stuff..
as far as i know, a photon is a particle AND a wave, not one or the other. its an interesting problem. it displays properties of both particles and waves, but the act of observing it determines its state.....ugh.....

reproduction....
just like a farmer does more to a seed, so does a father also take care of his wife. i told you it was a simplistic analogy. i know about human reproduction...but you are right about the farming part. i don't know all the ins and outs of farming. i still wonder why you are attacking these simple points......where is the full frontal assault on my theology??

Queen of Swords

I can feel the misogyny, the vagueness and the adherence to outdated precepts.

References, please. Also, are you by this statement implying that a woman is always to ask a man for advice rather than speaking out in church? What is the reason for keeping silent if she has a brother? After all, the rationale behind keeping quiet if the woman has a husband is because the husband would feel inadequate. Are you saying that brothers, uncles, etc. would also feel inadequate if their sister, niece, etc. opened her mouth in church?

You brought up the hormones produced by men and women - they're your game now.

1. You have not defined this "body/mind" whatever.
2. So steroids increase muscle mass. Why do you bring up synthetic hormones when we were talking about naturally produced hormones? Also, if you are claiming that testosterone causes aggressiveness, I would like a reference for "on the whole the users are more aggressive".
3. How does this relate to the emotional states of men and woman? Are you saying that women cannot be as aggressive as men?

Please describe these dogmas, then say why you brought up the topic of sexual harrassment in the first place. What point are you trying to prove?

Please describe what a woman cannot teach a boy that a school, youth group, etc. also cannot teach him. Also, by these standards, it would be all right for girls not to have male role models. Where do you stand on that issue?

References please.

Really? Does this happen in all circumstances, or just a few? What happens if the father abandons the mother after the first month or so? Does the baby fail to develop normally? What if it's a one-night stand? Does the pregnancy still progress without input of any kind from the man?

"A dude puts semen in a woman and a baby pops out". This is what you call "knowing about human reproduction"? You're trying to be funny, aren't you?

Your theology is hardly original. It has been refuted time and time again on these boards.

Your approach to human reproduction, on the other hand, is quite novel. Man sows seed, woman incubates it. Yes, put this way, I can see why you would refer to a complex process as a "simple point".

And you still haven't addressed my question as to why a supposedly benevolent god would inspire Paul to give misogynistic rules to women. Perhaps this is getting more into your theology?

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

Deputy42

lot of ground to cover....

outdated principles....maybe...
if paul was a misoginyst, then st peter was too. 1peter 3:1-8. also the metaphor about the church is as follows from ephesians 5:22-24 "wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the lord. for the huband is the head of the wife just as christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the savior. just as the church is subject to christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything to their husbands"

i didn't cant find the quote about brothers and uncles and taking care of unmarried women, but i will keep looking

progesterone....
again, i can only talk about the hormones i know, and i don't know about progesterone, i'm sorry. a person can take real, genuine, shots of testosterone, and be subject to the same effects as artificial testosterone.

here is a good article about the effects of steroid use <a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1676.50919" target="_blank">http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1676.50919</a>

mind body....
i'm surprised you havent heard of the mind/body. maybe you are being funny this time i think the best definition is the simplest. body: that which is controlled, mind: the controller.

sexual harrassment....
the topic was originally brought up with regards to men and women in the workplace. earlier i was addressing with redistributive agendas such as afirmative action. i attacked their stance on the grounds that seemingly good ideas, when put into practice, often turn ugly. the simple idea that women, and men too, shouldnt feel scared to come to work because of some sicko. where i work, the sexual harrassment policy is not a page in the employee handbook, it is a volume unto itself.

role models....
given two children, identical except for one has a loving mother and father and the other has either a loving mother or a loving father, but not both. if all things go well, both will be well adjusted members of society. however, imo, the child with the mother and father will have and advantage over the person with only one parent.

will there be male role models at this youth group?

quantum primer here <a href="http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~trstedl/quantum/quantum.html#Duality" target="_blank">http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~trstedl/quantum/quantum.html#Duality</a>

please point me to the proof that negates christianity, i am eager so see it till next time, internet forum interlocutor.....(was that to congenial?)

Deputy42

almost forgot, about the complexity of human reproduction.

if its so complicated, why can the least educated reproduce just as well as the most educated? doesn't seem that complicated to me

Queen of Swords

So show me something that's not outdated.

No argument there, if he believed that women had to be automatically submissive within the bounds of marriage.

So how many men take shots of testosterone? And is this something normal healthy men are advised to do, perhaps to differentiate them from women?

Perhaps today is your day to be surprised.

What is your definition of "mind", and how does this "mind/body" thing apply to the discussion at hand?

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that because of the possibility of sexual harrassment, women and men should not work together? Please give a yes or no answer to this question.

In your opinion? No facts to back it up? What advantage would that be, specifically?

Maybe the child in question is a girl. According to your theory, girls don't need to learn how to be male, so they don't need male role models.

First, there is no "proof" of anything, except in mathematics.

Second, there are threads all over the Philosophical Forums about different aspects of Christianity : the creation story, the infallibility of the bible, the existence of the Christian god, and so on.

Queen of Swords

Regarding the article that you posted, it was about anabolic steroids, not normal quantities of testosterone produced by the human body. Also, you fail to address the following questions :

1. So steroids increase muscle mass. Why do you bring up synthetic hormones when we were talking about naturally produced hormones? Also, if you are claiming that normal quantities of testosterone cause aggressiveness, I would like a reference for this.

2. How does this relate to the emotional states of men and woman? Are you saying that women cannot be as aggressive as men?

3. Even if men are more aggressive than women, how does this make them better teachers (which is what Paul had in mind)?

A few more questions that you did not answer :

4. Please define the “dogma” that pertains to sexual harrassment.

5. Please describe what a woman cannot teach a boy that a school, youth group, etc. also cannot teach him. Also, by these standards, it would be all right for girls not to have male role models. Where do you stand on that issue?

You said, <strong>reproduction....
just like a farmer does more to a seed, so does a father also take care of his wife. </strong>

6. Does this happen in all circumstances, or just a few? What happens if the father abandons the mother after the first month or so? Does the baby fail to develop normally? What if it's a one-night stand? Does the pregnancy still progress without input of any kind from the man?

And the question you have been avoiding :

7. Why does a supposedly benevolent god inspire Paul to give misogynistic rules to women?

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>