Soul Invictus

EstherRose,

First and foremost, I hope you feel better. I congratulate you for the courage you've exhibited to even converse in a forum which is the proverbial "hostile territory" with the majority of viewers disagreeing with your views. Dissension is the natural by-product when theists,atheists, and agnostics get together over religious issues. I am interested in what you have to say. As a former Christian, I am familiar with the line of thinking that goes with that crowd. I never was a fundie, however being raised in the church, I have a familiarity with some of the rationale behind the beliefs Christians hold. I do not think that I will be swayed back into the camp, however I am willing to discuss issues in which we will disagree. And although we aren't trying to convert or de-convert anyone, we do wish to express the rationale or faith behind our choice of thought. This is what argumentation is about. It can be conducive if the name calling is left out. As part of the minority here, you may have a larger share of PMs than the rest (when it comes to positions on certain issues) however a bit of advice I would say is to be prudent not to appear trollish. Nothing is more detestable than someone who abandons a thread, which conveniently comes at a point of what could be easily conceived as a argumentative "checkmate"

I wish you success in future dialogue, and if you get the chance or care to respond to a few of the other threads I addressed...that would be fine. I'm sure regardless of what position prevails, we can all learn something from each other here, beit being brought into the light of knowledge and new information that we had no prior experience with, or learning more about the human psychology.

Regards,

Invictus

EstherRose

Thank you for your kind thoughts for my welfare. My thoughts are still a little muddled as I am not quite out of the woods yet. My brain turns to mush when I am weak and hurting. At least the threat of hospitalization is gone. I really was quite ill last week, not merely hiding from you all.

The divinity of Jesus (as I understood your post referred to)

If He were merely sent by God and was only a man, He would have spoken like the prophets did. All of them began their teachings or warnings with comments like “thus saith the Lord” whereas Jesus said “verily I say unto you”. His teachings were always ultimate and final. He repeatedly placed His teachings above those of Moses and the prophets. He spoke on His own authority. He even asserted that His words were eternal in Mark 13:31. Jesus regarded Himself and His message as inseparable, the very being and words of God. The people recognized it too (see Luke 4:32; Matthew 7:28-29; John 7:46).

There is the reference in Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Which indicates an acknowledgement of Jesus and God being one and the same. Revelation 1:7 refers to Jesus being the one they pierced so it ties it together.

God’s name in Exodus 3:14 “I Am” is ego eimi (in the Greek Septuagint). A number of times in the New Testament, Jesus refers to Himself as ego eimi. John 8:24 is one such example. John 8:28 is another.

Old Testament passages about God were applied to Jesus in the New Testament. Isaiah 40:3 was fulfilled in the ministry of John the Baptist (Mark 1:2-4) A passage in Isaiah 6:1-5 recounts a vision of God on His throne in His glory. Later Isaiah 42:8 states that the Lord never gives His glory to another. The apostle John writes that Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory (John 12:41)

The actions of God are also ascribed to Jesus. Psalm 119 declares that it is God who gives and preserves life. Jesus Himself claims this power in John 5:21
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Ezekiel 43:2 describes the voice of God like the roar of rushing waters. Revelation 1:15 describes the voice of Jesus as the sound of rushing waters. God is described as an everlasting light in Isaiah 60:19-20. In Revelation 21:23, God gives (the city) light, the Lamb is its lamp.

To the ancient people, “son of” meant “of the order of”. For example, “sons of prophets” in 1 Kings 20:35 meant “of the order of the prophets”. Nehemiah 12:28 refers to “sons of the singers” as “of the order of the singers”. The Son of God meant of the order of God, a claim of undiminished deity. His Jewish contemporaries understood that when Jesus made the claim of being God.
John 19
7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

John 5
18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus has always been the Son of God even before His time on earth. This is apparent in John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Being sent into the world implies He existed before His incarnation on earth. Hebrews 1:2 indicates Jesus existed before creation. See also Colossians 1:17. Jesus confirms this in John when He says
John 8
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

When Jesus pronounced the forgiveness of the paralytic’s sins, He was equating Himself with God, and they all knew it in His time.

John 10:30 speaks for itself, but if you want more commentary…

John 10
30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

The Jews fully understood He was equating Himself with God. Jesus could have said, ‘no you are mistaken, I was merely claiming unity of purpose’, but He didn’t. He claimed deity and the Jews understood that.

Jesus also willingly accepted worship, something the apostles themselves were horrified about when they preached the message of Christ and people tried to worship them. He accepted worship from Thomas in John 20:28, a leper in Matthew 8:2, a ruler in Matthew 9:18, a blind man in John 9:38, a woman in Matthew 15:25, Mary Magdalene in Matthew 28:9 and His disciples in Matthew 28:17. Angels worshipped Him according to Hebrews 1:6, as did wise men in Matthew 15:25. All of these verses use the word proskuneo, the same word for worshipping the Father in the New Testament.

Below is a personal reference (testimony) and not scholarly at all. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

On a personal note, when I believed in God but did not accept that Jesus was His son, only a prophet of God, I did not have the personal relationship with God that I do now. When I accepted Jesus, there was a noticeable difference. I am now connected to the Lord in a way I have never been before.

River

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EstherRose
[B]Thank you for your kind thoughts for my welfare. My thoughts are still a little muddled as I am not quite out of the woods yet. My brain turns to mush when I am weak and hurting. At least the threat of hospitalization is gone. I really was quite ill last week, not merely hiding from you all.


River says: I hope you feel better.

-----------------------------------------



The divinity of Jesus (as I understood your post referred to)

If He were merely sent by God and was only a man, He would have spoken like the prophets did. All of them began their teachings or warnings with comments like “thus saith the Lord” whereas Jesus said “verily I say unto you”. His teachings were always ultimate and final. He repeatedly placed His teachings above those of Moses and the prophets. He spoke on His own authority. He even asserted that His words were eternal in Mark 13:31. Jesus regarded Himself and His message as inseparable, the very being and words of God. The people recognized it too (see Luke 4:32; Matthew 7:28-29; John 7:46).

---------------------------------------------

River says:

Well, The Qur'an gives Jesus (pbuh) the title "Word of G-d". Thus, he probably channeled direct Revelations that culminated into a Scripture known amongs some circles as "Injeel". Since he was the " Word of G-d" he was also G-d's representative at the time. So if you follow the Christ, you also essentially follow God.
His teachings were similar to those taught by Moses (but unfortunately corrupted by Rabbis ) and he stated in the Bible , that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfull it. He is placed higher than Moses because he ( Jesus Christ) was the Penultimate Messenger of G-d as well as the Messiah ...or" Masih " of the Qur'an

------------------------------------------------------------

There is the reference in Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Which indicates an acknowledgement of Jesus and God being one and the same. Revelation 1:7 refers to Jesus being the one they pierced so it ties it together.

God’s name in Exodus 3:14 “I Am” is ego eimi (in the Greek Septuagint). A number of times in the New Testament, Jesus refers to Himself as ego eimi. John 8:24 is one such example. John 8:28 is another.


------------------------------------------------------------



River says:

Yes, Jesus Christ and God [aka Allayo/Allaha (aramaic) Eloah( hebrew),Allah (arabic) ,Eloi ,Ella (eskimo)] were One in message and thus if you follow the Christ , you are in essence following G-d. But do Christians follow the Christ or do they follow Paul?




------------------------------------------------------------------

Old Testament passages about God were applied to Jesus in the New Testament. Isaiah 40:3 was fulfilled in the ministry of John the Baptist (Mark 1:2-4) A passage in Isaiah 6:1-5 recounts a vision of God on His throne in His glory. Later Isaiah 42:8 states that the Lord never gives His glory to another. The apostle John writes that Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory (John 12:41)


----------------------------------------------------------------




River says:



The Old Testament does not talk about Christ. It talks about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or " Or the Prophet like unto me amongst your brethren ( Ishmaelites)" as stated by Prophet Moses (pbuh). Why would the OT mention the Penultimate Messenger over the last Messenger....defies logic. However, Revelations of NT and Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) describes the Second advent of Jesus Christ to lead the Islamic (Hashlama )Kingdom of Heaven on Earth .


-------------------------------------------------

The actions of God are also ascribed to Jesus. Psalm 119 declares that it is God who gives and preserves life. Jesus Himself claims this power in John 5:21
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.




--------------------------------------------------------



River says: I dont understand your point. This is illustrated in the Qur'an


…..As a Messenger to the tribe of Israel, saying: "I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. I will create the shape of a bird out of a clay for you and then breathe into it and it will be a bird by Allah's permission. I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead to life, by Allah's permission. I will tell you what you eat and what you store up in your homes. There is a Sign for you in that if you are believers. (Surah Al ‘Imran: 49 Holy Qur'an)


-----------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 43:2 describes the voice of God like the roar of rushing waters. Revelation 1:15 describes the voice of Jesus as the sound of rushing waters. God is described as an everlasting light in Isaiah 60:19-20. In Revelation 21:23, God gives (the city) light, the Lamb is its lamp.

To the ancient people, “son of” meant “of the order of”. For example, “sons of prophets” in 1 Kings 20:35 meant “of the order of the prophets”. Nehemiah 12:28 refers to “sons of the singers” as “of the order of the singers”. The Son of God meant of the order of God, a claim of undiminished deity. His Jewish contemporaries understood that when Jesus made the claim of being God.
John 19
7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."


---------------------------------------------------

River says:

Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) was an ascetic wanderer or nomad. He would move quickly from community to community. Many who witnessed his miracles understood Jesus's role as Messenger of G-d. However some communities spread lies about him and called him "Son of God". Unfortunately Jesus Christ, could not be everywhere at once and could not correct everyone. Thus , the Jews wanted him dead because they " thought" he claimed to be Son of God, which is clearly blasphemy and possibly also idolatry.


------------------------------------------------------

John 5
18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus has always been the Son of God even before His time on earth. This is apparent in John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


-------------------------------------------------

River says:

The Son of God title was a later addition and was never meant to be taken literally. All prophets are sent to redeem or save their people or the world

-------------------------------------------------
Being sent into the world implies He existed before His incarnation on earth. Hebrews 1:2 indicates Jesus existed before creation. See also Colossians 1:17. Jesus confirms this in John when He says
John 8
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."


----------------------------------------------


River says:

In the Bible it states that Jesus says " I am the Alpha and the Omega. This simply means " I am the First Adam and the Last Adam". The 2nd cycle of humanity begins when Jesus takes his role as Messiah and becomes the Caliph of the Islamic Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.



-------------------------------------------------
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

-------------------------------------------------

River says :


This verifies Jesus's special role as Messiah. Where all the Nations that came forth from Abraham will be in actuality under Jesus Christ . And Jesus Christ will rule and Judge using the Criterion , Al-Furqan or Quran.


----------------------------------------------------

When Jesus pronounced the forgiveness of the paralytic’s sins, He was equating Himself with God, and they all knew it in His time.

John 10:30 speaks for itself, but if you want more commentary…

John 10
30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


-----------------------------------------------


River says:


" I and the Father are One ( in message or Spirit)"


The Jews misinterpreted the situation



-------------------------------------------------
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

The Jews fully understood He was equating Himself with God. Jesus could have said, ‘no you are mistaken, I was merely claiming unity of purpose’, but He didn’t. He claimed deity and the Jews understood that.

Jesus also willingly accepted worship, something the apostles themselves were horrified about when they preached the message of Christ and people tried to worship them. He accepted worship from Thomas in John 20:28, a leper in Matthew 8:2, a ruler in Matthew 9:18, a blind man in John 9:38, a woman in Matthew 15:25, Mary Magdalene in Matthew 28:9 and His disciples in Matthew 28:17. Angels worshipped Him according to Hebrews 1:6, as did wise men in Matthew 15:25. All of these verses use the word proskuneo, the same word for worshipping the Father in the New Testament.



-------------------------------------


River says:

It is unfortunate that Scribes have inserted there own desires and other later additions based on politics . However, the majority of the verses in the Bible go clearly against the concept of Deifying Jesus Christ. This is important for all those who reflect.

Doctor X

Right . . . let me try this again . . .

"Ahem" Cracks knuckles . . .

BY WHAT CRITERIA DO YOU CONSIDER TEXTS VALID, CONGRUENT, FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND AGES?

Listens. . . .

[Cue Sounds of Crickets Chirping in the Cold, Still, Night.--Ed.]

Walks away muttering. . . .

--J.D.

EstherRose

After re-reading your posts, I'm guessing you are directing your most recent post here to River or am I wrong?

River

You are addressing EstherRose? Am I right?

Peter Kirby

Hey, whether he is responding to EstherRose or to River, look again at the question:

"BY WHAT CRITERIA DO YOU CONSIDER TEXTS VALID, CONGRUENT, FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND AGES?"

What does that mean? It seems ungrammatical.

best,
Peter Kirby

Doctor X

Shall I move a clause?

BY WHAT CRITERIA DO YOU CONSIDER TEXTS VALID, CONGRUENT, FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND AGES?

Snip! Paste!

BY WHAT CRITERIA DO YOU CONSIDER TEXTS FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND AGES, VALID, [and--Ed.] CONGRUENT?

--J.D.

EstherRose

River, your Koran does not say the same things that the bible says about Jesus. Your koran’s version of Jesus is not an accurate version of Jesus. The above statement is meaningless.

Christians follow Jesus. The biblical Jesus, not the corrupt version of Jesus in the Koran.



Proverbs 30
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know!

Lies. You cannot show me where this is mentioned in the bible. Jesus is the Son of God, not a mere messenger. Your so-called prophet is not a messenger from God.

More lies. Jesus will return to judge those who have rejected Him. I’m afraid that will include Islam since they have denied His deity.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, , who is at the Father's side, has made him known.



John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 6
40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

John 20
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 4
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


River that is absurd, yet for someone who denies the deity of Jesus, I suppose it is only to be expected. Jesus Himself said He is God. He knew what the Jews were thinking and He did not correct them.


Jesus is not a mere prophet. He is the Son of God, part of the Trinity of God. What you claim is just more lies of the Koran.

Wrong again River. The Alpha and Omega is what God said about Himself.

Revelation 1
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

This does not refer to Adam except in the Koran which has corrupted the word of God. Jesus will not become part of any false Islamic kingdom.

River

-EstherRose





Why is the Qur'an a lie?

Why is the Bible the Truth?

Is this just your own , unsupported opinion?

What if Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a muslim?



We don't think of Jesus (pbuh) as "just a prophet". We believe he was the "Messiah", the very "Word of G-d" and " Spirit of G-d". Muslims respect and believe in Jesus more than the whole of Christendom and Christianity. We always , out of respect , say peace be upon him or (pbuh) after his name. We never say his name in vain. We don't joke around about Jesus (pbuh) Heck , we don't even draw false images of him. We believe that he is the "Messiah" and he will gather the world population under him, unite all peoples , end all wars , usher a huge era of peace, defeat the Antichrist and Gog and Magog.