CyberPretzel

Can someone point out the problems with this or know if I can improve my premises?

Assumption: The Bible and the description of Satan within is 100% accurate. Furthermore, all end time prophecies in Revelations will also occur as described.

Premise 1 : Satan bringing about the AntiChrist will signal the return of Jesus.
Premise 2 : Satan is not a automaton and is at least as intelligent as an average human.
Premise 3 : Satan can read and is familiar with Revelations in the New Testament.

Conclusion: If Satan wishes to prevent the return of Jesus he need only to refrain from performing any of the actions that Revelations attribute to him.

Thanks!

Automaton

But Automaton is indeed a satan.

brighid

Cyber pretzel

Hey, that’s pretty interesting! Especially since Christianity alleges that Satan is an entity independent of their God, despite what the OT has to say on that matter. Satan is suppose to be pretty darn cunning – so it is presumable that said fictional creature should be at least as intelligent as the average adult human and capable of reading. And if this creature was intelligent it would be pretty easy to forestall the end of his reign on Earth and prevent the return of his Nemesis, Christ. In order for Christian ideal of Satan being all evil and God all good, Satan must be autonomous from God and cannot be acted upon by God as to interfere with that free will of his. Or else, if everything is already pre-ordained, God is controlling Satan and making him fulfill the prophecies in order to bring about the Apocalypse. This in turn puts the Christian in an interesting dilemma – if Satan really isn’t independent from God and has the free will to act against the prophecies (which is in his best interest) then God must control the actions of Satan, and thereby God and only God is responsible for evil.

But hey, it’s all just a bunch of mythical none sense any way!


Personally, I think this character Satan has gotten a bad rap

B

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

outtawork

Interesting....

I believe the same question can be asked in "reverse".... Why would Satan have set into motion all of those things that would eventually lead to his own punishment when Jesus supposidly lived?? How do believers rationalize these things?

Another question that your post got me to thinking is on the argument of Free-will.

Believers use this argument as the reason that god never makes his existance certain so that people will "love" him with sincerity.... why does the Devil do the same? He's not looking for love.

Wouldn't he get more "followers" if he were to come out and give anyone whatever they wanted if they followed him? I mean, if he can make himself look like an "angel of light", wouldn't that get alot of attention? If he is the "great deciever", couldn't he lie and say that he's from heaven and then lead everyone away from the true faith?

Since god doesn't choose to stop Satan from causing all of these wars, crimes against children, crimes against women, false prophets, and the campus crusade for christ... why would he stop him from going public?

Beats me.
Outtawork

Godless Dave

Maybe that's what he's doing. Maybe most of the alleged "miracles" are Satan's doing, to get people to follow fundamentalist religions, which he is controlling. It would explain the unnatural charisma of Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, et. al., and it would explain all the evil perpetrated by fundamentalist Christianity, fundamentalist Islam, and ultra-orthodox Judaism. Like in the Salem witch trials, the devil is really influencing the people who think they're Christians to murder the innocent people they think are Satanists.

sighhswolf

Since we are dealing in theory and what if's here,
I would say that Dave may be closer to being correct in his statement than we all know.
Even though it is not a new concept, I have for many years thought that If I were an immortal being representing "evil" "chaos" the opposite of the so-called "good" of another higher being, and I was given domain to act in any manner I wished in order to further my agenda, how would I accomplish my task.
I would seek to discredit the "good" in anyway possible, so......what if I were to manifest myself to a few humans and claim to be god.
At that time I would give them rules to follow that were impossible for the average human to adhere to throughout their life.
I would claim to be their one true god and present myself to them in ways that would be taken as supernatural to prove my existence.(which would be easy to do with a culture who has based their entire lives on superstition anyway)
Once done with the establishing of myself as an entity of supernatural goodness, I would then visit upon those unsuspecting followers all manner of attrocities and when they cried out against my injustices, I would attribute my actions to the eternal "it is for your own good" routine because you are acting in a manner opposite of my commands to you.
Therefore you must be punished for your lack of obedience to my commands.
Now I have them where I want them to be, I alone control their lives and futures.
I have convinced them that I can be their best benefactor, generous and loving, as long as they strictly adhere to my commands, but I can also be their destroyer if they choose not to follow my commands, and I have set the bar so high that no human could ever succeed in following all my commands to the letter, so I therefore have become all things to all people, goodness and evil in one package.
I have set myself up as something I am not, a good and loving benefactor who cares for and loves it's creations as long as they are totally obedient.
Of course I know that mankind has a propensity for curiousness and a natural disdain for authority.
I give them a god, because that is what they wanted.
I give them immpossibly high standards to follow knowing that they will suffer from guilt that surely must follow.
And the best part is....they all think it is my adversary giving them the commands, and trying to transform them from ordinary mortals into heavenly beings.
I have accomplished my task to impose guilt and anguish upon those I want to destroy, and in the process I have slandered my opponent and used his own image to gain my advantage.
The only way this plan could possible backfire is that my adversary would show himself to the entire population of humankind and announce that he did not give them all the guilt causing commands and that he is not the one who has visited all the attrocities upon them.
So, I have succeeded in slander for thousands of years, I have discredited and slandered the name of my opponent, I have caused millions of deaths, I have been able to sow the seeds of discontent, I have been able to impose intolerence, hate, elitism, discrimination, bigotry, I have been able to confuse the entire population of humans on this earth, and I have done it in the name of my enemy, which is the sweetest revenge.
Just a thought.
Wolf

Joe Nobody

I take it you are cowmilk at CF

Joe Nobody

CyberPretzel

Yes, that would be me. I can't even understand most of the replies being given by some of the Christians especially Reformationist. Most of what he wrote didn't make any real world sense to me. Oh well.....
If anyone is curious to see what some of replies there are look to <a href="http://www.christianforums.com" target="_blank">www.christianforums.com</a> in the General Apologetics forum.

case

This has to be one of the more original threads that I've seen in awhile. If we assume that Revelation is true, and will occur in the near future, than Satan is some kind of idiot, or at least devoid of free will. Kind of takes the fear out of the whole "burn in hell" idea. Satan is reduced to one of the Three Stooges. Maybe we should name him Horney.