Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Blu · 02-18-2002, 05:54 PM

I have been reading a little bit in this forum. I feel like I am a late starter because some of the subject matter people are posting does not make any since to me.

I want to put out there that spirituality can be associated with evolution and evolution can be associated with spirituality.

I have always believed that atheists were angry and maybe had a negative experience with people who are into organized religion. I also believe that everyone can find a middle ground no matter what their beliefs are atheist, satanists, christians, or buddhist.

I love having these types of discussions. I consider myself a freethinker. I have a philosophy of life.

I wonder who is happier in life: People who believe in God or people who don't? Anyone interested in starting a discussion with me about this?

I also would like to say that most if not all scientific fact correlate with spiritual aspects. I guess it all depends on what your perceptions are.

Isn't being human interesting?

Vorkosigan · 02-18-2002, 06:21 PM

Welcome aboard! Your post touches on many different topics. I suggest you look carefully at our forums, chop your post up by topic, and post it in the relevant forums. For example, your comment about atheists being angry at religion probably belongs in the Misc. Religious Discussions, while the question regarding evolution and spirituality indeed belongs in the Evolution/Creation forum.

Some of the articles in our library address these issues. Just click on the link at the top of the forum.

Would those of you who respond in E/C please confine your responses to the evolution and spirituality question? Many thanks....

Michael
Administrator

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]

tronvillain · 02-18-2002, 06:44 PM

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "spirituality" - I've never found much use for the word myself.

nogods4me · 02-18-2002, 07:05 PM

hmm lemmee see who is is happier
Richard Dawkins or Osama Bin Laden?
Alan Dersowitz or Yassir Arafat?
Me or Ralph Reed?
well I could go on for hours, it is a silly question.
and I am tired, so very tired of hearing that canard about the atheist being angry at god, or religion, it is like saying at i am angry at the easter bunny, or the great pumpkin.
I would think that if anyone would be angry with god it would be those folks who pray all the time and receive no answer, those who believe in the goodness of a benevolent supreme being and yet must live every day in a world where innocent children get horrid and painful diseases and die each and every houir of each and every day. aren't you angry that your omnipotent and benevolent god allows this to happen. and please, if i hear "The lord works in mysterious ways" one more time, sheesh.

here you go, work on this for a bit. and get back to me:

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: nogods4me ]

Kosh · 02-18-2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:


I want to put out there that spirituality can be associated with evolution and evolution can be associated with spirituality.

Since "spiritual" encounters have been shown
(see Time magazine sometime last year) to be
nothing more than a chemical affect on the
spacial awareness center of the brain, I would
have to agree.

Edited to add: Correction, Newsweek, "Religion And The Brain ", May 7, 2001. NW requires a subscription online to read it though.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]

Blu · 02-19-2002, 06:53 AM

Hi there, (to Administrator...I do address Evolution in this post. We are still practicing freedom of speech here right?)

Thank you for responding to my post. I realize that people in the Christian religion, a religion I don't affiliate with, seems to use statements that are "cliche" such as "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

This is the point I weeded out from what you have written: If there is a omnipotent God looking down on us, why does this great and powerful being allow suffering and death to occur on earth?

Some human beings believe in a "God" that organized religion teaches. I personally believe that there is a "presence" or an energy that is "behind" the workings of the Universe, or what we can deduce from science involving the Universe. I don't think human beings have capacity to correctly define or understand this "presence." So we use words like "God" and "Allah" and we give this God a persona so we as humans can relate.

I believe that we are all energy. Physical energy is the most densest form of the energy (ideas from Quantum mechanics.) But what is the energy that pumps our hearts and allows the brain to function? That is another form of energy we do not see but we can see the results of this energy and we can also measure this energy through EEG (involving the brain.) We can even say this energy that makes the body function stems from what popular religion have termed "soul."

What is the energy of the neurons in our brains? Some call that consciousness. What is consciousness then? Is it an accumilation of perceptions, what we have learned from experience, temperment, intelligence? And doesn't all of this determine were the "energy" or activity of the brain goes? Could this be the "soul"? It can have many names.

If there is a "soul" than what could be its purpose? Does it even have a purpose? Evolutionary psychologist say that it is to procreate. Is the purpose of all lifeforms,including the human animal to just procreate and fulfill our evolutionary whims? Is our reptilian brain so powerful that we are nothing more than that?

I like to think with my frontal lobe and the cerebral cortex so I would have to say no. Some our slaves to the parts of their brains that our considered less evolutionary advanced then the gray matter that is the cerebral cortex. They choose not to think before they act. They are the criminals, murders, aggressors, rapists, and terrorists of our society.

Back to the question: why does this God allow such horrendous things to happen? Maybe it is because we are not puppets and that is why humans, as individuals and as a species, have complete absolution, or freedom, over their own destiny.

Destiny is the path we are going down through the ages of our "evolution." Individuals are going through a certain kind of evolution you could say as well. The results of individual evolution are the microcosom and the results that we can see as a species (agriculture, democracy, etc) is the macrocosom. What does it mean to become evolutionary advanced as an individual? Does it mean we are intelligent and excel at math and science? Or does it mean something else?

To be evolutionary advanced could mean that we as individuals are capable of positive selfless acts. Saving lives not for monetary gain or for power but for honest humanitarianism. This is one of the biggest aspects that separate us from lower lifeforms.

So does that mean anyone who murders, who perpetuates acts of terrorism (Osama Bin Ladan) and violence mean they are not as evolutionary advanced as someone who disregards their own life in order to save someone else? I would say yes. He still has a cerebral cortex so what makes him not as evolutionary advanced? Could something else determine evolution of an individual? Is it the energy that determines individual evolution?

We all know that there is more to everything then just a physical realm. There may be dozens, if not more, dimensions to the Universe. Just because our human brains haven't learned to determine all of these mysteries, does that mean it cannot be? Just because we can't fully comprehend what it means does that make in not Universal truth?

There is an aborigine in Australia who has never seen modern society. If you try to explain to him what computers are and what they do, he will think you are possessed by spirits and laugh at you. He cannot comprehend computers so they are not true for him, they don't exist for him.

Who knows what humans will be capable of doing 200 or 300 years from now. Maybe the theories regarding "spiritual" type theories and advances in quantum mechanics will give birth to a knowledge we can't even begin to fathom or dream.

Isn't it important to realize we are limited in what we know and decide maybe an open mind is very valuable? Discoveries come from open mindedness. If you close your mind how can you receive knowledge...how can you advance?

What is spirituality anyway? People get caught up with words rather than meanings. Spirituality can mean anything to anyone. We all have different brains and different perceptions about life. Some people see the surface other people are aware of other aspects of the surface. Some people just ask themselves a lot of questions rather than sum everything up and administer judgment.

Being human and knowing that there is still so much room for the advancment in our knowledge of the Universe should create a certain degree of humility. I don't pretend to know everything there is to know. And I also realize what is true for me may not be true for another. So I stay away from judging other people's perceptions about their lives, their Gods, their general beliefs and the meaning of all of the above.

pseudobug · 02-19-2002, 08:44 AM

I'll try to address some of your questions/comments, Blu.

Quote:

We are still practicing freedom of speech here right?

Sorry, blu, put the First Amendment aside. While this is a "public forum", it is different from the press or standing on the sidewalk babbling incoherently about whatever it s one wishes to rant about. Web sites like this cost money and time to run. The people providing the money and time to run it can dictate the rules of participation. In other words, they don't have to allow "freedom of speech" if they so desire. Moreover, they can ask you to abide by the rules or revoke your participation priveleges if you refuse to cooperate.

Why this assertion of "free speech rights" on message boards continually crops up is amazing to me and demonstrates the abhorrent understanding and like of common sense concerning the US Constitution by it's citizens in general.

pseudobug · 02-19-2002, 09:14 AM

I'll try to address some of your questions/comments, Blu.

Quote:

We are still practicing freedom of speech here right?

Sorry, blu, put the First Amendment aside. While this is a "public forum", it is different from the press or standing on the sidewalk babbling incoherently about whatever it s one wishes to rant about. Web sites like this cost money and time to run. The people providing the money and time to run it can dictate the rules of participation. In other words, they don't have to allow "freedom of speech" if they so desire. Moreover, they can ask you to abide by the rules or revoke your participation priveleges if you refuse to cooperate.

Why this assertion of "free speech rights" on message boards continually crops up is amazing to me and demonstrates the abhorrent understanding and like of common sense concerning the US Constitution by it's citizens in general.

Quote:

But what is the energy that pumps our hearts and allows the brain to function?

Well, blu, we use this little molecule called ATP for energy to power our cells. We humans (along with other "lower" animals, bacteria, fungi, etc) make our own ATP from the foods we eat. The foods we eat are metabolized and are eventually shunted into this metabolic pathway called the Citric acid cycle to produce the reducing equivalents NADH and FADH2 via a series of redox reactions. NADH and FADH2 are used to, in part, drive another process called oxidative phosphorylization which occurs at ATP synthases located in the membranes of cellular organelles called mitochondria. Oxidation of NADH results in establishment of a proton gradient that drives the phosphorylation and conversion of ADP to ATP.

That's the short and sweet version. To learn more I would suggest that you <a href="http://www.boyerbiochem.com/animations/animations.htm" target="_blank">click here</a> and check out the animated versions (damn, students are lucky today aren't they?

) or take a class in biology or biochemistry.

So, basically Blu, what you described about the "energy" of the heart and brain is a bunch of touchy-feely mumbo-jumbo invented by humans with too much time on their hands to assuage our species' generally tendency towards the narcissistic notion that we are actual "special".

Whoops, sorry--I've gotta run. I'm sure folks will have a grand old time with your post.

eh · 02-19-2002, 09:19 AM

I've heard of the concept of God as an energy, or special force. But where have we ever seen energy that is other than physical energy?

Blu · 02-19-2002, 10:05 AM

First I would like to say I genuinely asked, "Is there still freedom of speech here?" because I genuinely wanted to know.

I have recieved interesting fascism like email from people who claim to be a part of this forum. I certainly do not want to be affiliated with anything that is fascist...so I guess I was reallly asking if this web site was predominently fascist. I thought I would get an answer from the Adminitrator who, someone pointed out, was a part of the system of people who were involved in creating this web site whoever "they" are.

In hindsight, I realize now that I was coming off sounding sarcastic which was not my intention. Anyway, there you go.

02-18-2002, 05:54 PM	#1
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Evolution and Spirituality connected..... Look at Quantum Physics..Anyone interested? I have been reading a little bit in this forum. I feel like I am a late starter because some of the subject matter people are posting does not make any since to me. I want to put out there that spirituality can be associated with evolution and evolution can be associated with spirituality. I have always believed that atheists were angry and maybe had a negative experience with people who are into organized religion. I also believe that everyone can find a middle ground no matter what their beliefs are atheist, satanists, christians, or buddhist. I love having these types of discussions. I consider myself a freethinker. I have a philosophy of life. I wonder who is happier in life: People who believe in God or people who don't? Anyone interested in starting a discussion with me about this? I also would like to say that most if not all scientific fact correlate with spiritual aspects. I guess it all depends on what your perceptions are. Isn't being human interesting?

02-18-2002, 06:21 PM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Welcome aboard! Your post touches on many different topics. I suggest you look carefully at our forums, chop your post up by topic, and post it in the relevant forums. For example, your comment about atheists being angry at religion probably belongs in the Misc. Religious Discussions, while the question regarding evolution and spirituality indeed belongs in the Evolution/Creation forum. Some of the articles in our library address these issues. Just click on the link at the top of the forum. Would those of you who respond in E/C please confine your responses to the evolution and spirituality question? Many thanks.... Michael Administrator [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-18-2002, 06:44 PM	#3
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "spirituality" - I've never found much use for the word myself.

02-19-2002, 06:53 AM	#6
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Hi there, (to Administrator...I do address Evolution in this post. We are still practicing freedom of speech here right?) Thank you for responding to my post. I realize that people in the Christian religion, a religion I don't affiliate with, seems to use statements that are "cliche" such as "The Lord works in mysterious ways." This is the point I weeded out from what you have written: If there is a omnipotent God looking down on us, why does this great and powerful being allow suffering and death to occur on earth? Some human beings believe in a "God" that organized religion teaches. I personally believe that there is a "presence" or an energy that is "behind" the workings of the Universe, or what we can deduce from science involving the Universe. I don't think human beings have capacity to correctly define or understand this "presence." So we use words like "God" and "Allah" and we give this God a persona so we as humans can relate. I believe that we are all energy. Physical energy is the most densest form of the energy (ideas from Quantum mechanics.) But what is the energy that pumps our hearts and allows the brain to function? That is another form of energy we do not see but we can see the results of this energy and we can also measure this energy through EEG (involving the brain.) We can even say this energy that makes the body function stems from what popular religion have termed "soul." What is the energy of the neurons in our brains? Some call that consciousness. What is consciousness then? Is it an accumilation of perceptions, what we have learned from experience, temperment, intelligence? And doesn't all of this determine were the "energy" or activity of the brain goes? Could this be the "soul"? It can have many names. If there is a "soul" than what could be its purpose? Does it even have a purpose? Evolutionary psychologist say that it is to procreate. Is the purpose of all lifeforms,including the human animal to just procreate and fulfill our evolutionary whims? Is our reptilian brain so powerful that we are nothing more than that? I like to think with my frontal lobe and the cerebral cortex so I would have to say no. Some our slaves to the parts of their brains that our considered less evolutionary advanced then the gray matter that is the cerebral cortex. They choose not to think before they act. They are the criminals, murders, aggressors, rapists, and terrorists of our society. Back to the question: why does this God allow such horrendous things to happen? Maybe it is because we are not puppets and that is why humans, as individuals and as a species, have complete absolution, or freedom, over their own destiny. Destiny is the path we are going down through the ages of our "evolution." Individuals are going through a certain kind of evolution you could say as well. The results of individual evolution are the microcosom and the results that we can see as a species (agriculture, democracy, etc) is the macrocosom. What does it mean to become evolutionary advanced as an individual? Does it mean we are intelligent and excel at math and science? Or does it mean something else? To be evolutionary advanced could mean that we as individuals are capable of positive selfless acts. Saving lives not for monetary gain or for power but for honest humanitarianism. This is one of the biggest aspects that separate us from lower lifeforms. So does that mean anyone who murders, who perpetuates acts of terrorism (Osama Bin Ladan) and violence mean they are not as evolutionary advanced as someone who disregards their own life in order to save someone else? I would say yes. He still has a cerebral cortex so what makes him not as evolutionary advanced? Could something else determine evolution of an individual? Is it the energy that determines individual evolution? We all know that there is more to everything then just a physical realm. There may be dozens, if not more, dimensions to the Universe. Just because our human brains haven't learned to determine all of these mysteries, does that mean it cannot be? Just because we can't fully comprehend what it means does that make in not Universal truth? There is an aborigine in Australia who has never seen modern society. If you try to explain to him what computers are and what they do, he will think you are possessed by spirits and laugh at you. He cannot comprehend computers so they are not true for him, they don't exist for him. Who knows what humans will be capable of doing 200 or 300 years from now. Maybe the theories regarding "spiritual" type theories and advances in quantum mechanics will give birth to a knowledge we can't even begin to fathom or dream. Isn't it important to realize we are limited in what we know and decide maybe an open mind is very valuable? Discoveries come from open mindedness. If you close your mind how can you receive knowledge...how can you advance? What is spirituality anyway? People get caught up with words rather than meanings. Spirituality can mean anything to anyone. We all have different brains and different perceptions about life. Some people see the surface other people are aware of other aspects of the surface. Some people just ask themselves a lot of questions rather than sum everything up and administer judgment. Being human and knowing that there is still so much room for the advancment in our knowledge of the Universe should create a certain degree of humility. I don't pretend to know everything there is to know. And I also realize what is true for me may not be true for another. So I stay away from judging other people's perceptions about their lives, their Gods, their general beliefs and the meaning of all of the above.

02-19-2002, 09:19 AM	#9
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	I've heard of the concept of God as an energy, or special force. But where have we ever seen energy that is other than physical energy?

02-19-2002, 10:05 AM	#10
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	First I would like to say I genuinely asked, "Is there still freedom of speech here?" because I genuinely wanted to know. I have recieved interesting fascism like email from people who claim to be a part of this forum. I certainly do not want to be affiliated with anything that is fascist...so I guess I was reallly asking if this web site was predominently fascist. I thought I would get an answer from the Adminitrator who, someone pointed out, was a part of the system of people who were involved in creating this web site whoever "they" are. In hindsight, I realize now that I was coming off sounding sarcastic which was not my intention. Anyway, there you go.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.