xorbie

Whoa now.... free will DOES NOT mean that you are free to do whatever you want. Think about the words - "free will" NOT "free action." This means simply that we are free to want what we want, to think what we think, to desire to do what we desire to do. This does NOT mean we can necessarily transform this will into action.

Not that there is any reason to specifically discuss God's intentions if it is the Christian God that created humanity (which I doubt)... but if something else created humanity and this being is only very powerful but not beyond total understanding or questioning, then I would presume that we were given free will so we could be studied... hell I think studying people is interesting, and I am one.

Pyrrho

But we are not "free to want what we want, to think what we think, to desire to do what we desire to do", or, at least, we are not free to want what we don't want. Think about it: Can you seriously, right now, decide that you want to screw a corkscrew into your leg? Or to eat dog excrement? You could probably do those things if you wanted to do them, but you probably* can't want to do them. You don't decide what you want, at the most basic level; what you want is determined by your nature and nurture.

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*I added the word "probably", just in case there is a psycho among those reading this who does want to do those things. Most people cannot want to do those things, in most situations. And if a situation arose in which one would then want to do them, then it would be the situation that caused the change, not "free will".

Llyricist

xorbie,
Actually this is a point us atheists have tried to make to Christians, that we could have all the will in the world and not actually be free to actualize it. But that's where THEY will say no no no, you HAVE to be able to actualize it or else it isn't REALLY free will ..... ad infinitum....

Pyrrho

If god wanted to stop earthquakes, he would do so. If god wanted to stop tornados, he would do so. If god wanted to prevent disease (which he created, if he created everything), he would do so. If god wanted to stop little babies from being burned alive in building fires, he would do so. God is one sick son of a bitch. Or would be, if there were a god.

AmbiguousUbiquity

I agree with you! Let's see if I can make sense out of this too....if god was omniscient, wouldn't he already know that I would be an atheist? Why put me on the earth to be an atheist and then condemn me to hell for all eternity for having the free will to be an atheist? It's like a parent putting ice cream or lima beans in front of a child and ask them to pick one; if they pick the ice cream they will be punished. It DOES seem a little sick and twisted.....

luvluv

Did God decide to put you on earth or did your parents?

long winded fool

How do we know that God wants us to have free will?

If God is omnibenevolent, then he would probably want us to be capable love. (How can you be all-loving and not desire anyone else to be capable of love?)
Free will is required for love to exist. (Anything else is automation, and automatons can't love, though they may be able to simulate actions which are attributed to love.)
Therefore, God wants us to have free will because he wants human love to exist.

Jobar

Welcome AmbiguousUbiquity- a good post, and a cool username too. (Even if it is kinda hard to say.)

luvluv: Did God decide to put you on earth or did your parents?

luvluv, if God did not decide on that, how can you claim he is omniscient? Didn't he know every possible sperm and egg that might have joined to become some other person, and decide that no, you were the one he wanted?

luvluv

I don't know of any reason to think that He did. Do you?

EGGO

If there's a will there's a way. People already specified that part for you anyway.

I would sure say God did. All my parents did was conceived me. God created everything, and he knows everything that will happen. Surely he knew that I will eventually be created with this mentality.

So why is he allowing me to still exist? A last dinner before I burn in hell for eternity (according to the books, I'm sure as hell not being put in purgatory just because I don't believe in the guy, despite my moral behavior towards people and myself).

So the question still remains unanswered I'd say...
"Why did he create us knowing that we would do this, and then send us to hell?"

There's two sayings I remember that could help prove a point...

"Didn't God create the sinner, and the sin?

(If not, then He isn't omnipotent.)

Doesn't God know from the beginning of time exactly what each of us will decide?

(If not, He is not omniscient.)

Knowing what we will do, if He does not change us or the world to change our evil decision, then God is personally allowing evil, when He has the power to stop it. (Presuming He is indeed omnipotent.) In this case, He is not benevolent.

...How can one sin against the all-powerful and all-benevolent creator of the entire universe? It's simply impossible."

And

"If god is all knowing, he knows what he would have to do to make me believe he exists, and he would know that what he has shown so far isn't good enough for me.

If god is all powerful, he would be able to do it.
And if god is all good, he would want me to believe in him, especially if he condemns me to eternal torture for the petty crime of not believing without adequate evidence.

If god wants me to believe, he will have to give me a reason to.
Since he hasn't, I conclude he doesn't exist.

And if he punishes me because he wouldn't show himself to me, then he is guilty for my punishment."