Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inconnu
Amir, you may want to remove your website link!

Well, I am NOT here to sell my e-marketing and technical writing services as you may have misconcieved from my posting of my website. Basically a website is the best biodata of anyone here. I post it because if one wants to know more about me, they can do so by clicking directly on it, instead of first seeing my profile, searching site link and then going there.

If the Moderator does not like, I will allow them to remove all such links happily. What is reason behind your objection to my website link?

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

brighid · 06-26-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

I need more, can you provide any reason or purpose to whatever is happening around us?

Human choice, nothing more and nothing less. Some desire absolute power and control in order to enrich themselves and feed their egos. These are alleged men of God, loving and fearing him. They manipulate the masses and tell them what God is allegedly saying, thinking and desiring from the people, even if that goes against what a man/woman knows to be right and true. They manipulate your love and fear of a God to control you, to have power over you and to better their own life through that control and manipulation.

It is about pettiness, grudges and hatred bred out of ignorance and self-righteousness. There are no devils or Satan's moving men to do anything. Men make their own choices. If God is so powerful He would be able to stop the innocent from suffering under the tyranny of the wicked, allegedly guided by His nemesis. He would punish only the wicked and reward the pious, innocent humans who pledge their undying love, affection and devotion in this world and not wait for the Paradise of the next, a world that cannot be confirmed and does not likely exist.

Look at the world and see it for what it is: nothing more then a human construct working within a natural environment man has little, or no control over. If you study the behavior of animals you will see we are not much different - fighting for territory, resources, control over the breeding females, etc.

Understanding that man is the reason for our pain gives us hope. Man can change if he chooses to exert control and do what is right. There are no gods toying with us, no demons tempting us, no genies granting us wishes, and no Satans casting an evil spells over men. We are at fault and until man takes responsibility for himself, his condition and the mess he creates there will be no progress, no freedom and no relief from the guilt, pain and fear instilled in the hearts of men by other men threatening the unknown punishments of imaginary Gods and Demons.

God is nowhere, except in our imaginations.

Brighid

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inconnu
You are trying to illustrate evil as seperate from human resposibility. It isnt. It is yours and mine and it is our descision what we do with it.

How innocent of you.... Evil is not name of a single thought or a current in your brain. It is world's BIGGEST reality. I suppose you don't believe in God, then how can you believe in Satan, Devil, and things like that? For believing in Satan/Evil/Devil, you will first have to believe in God. In absence of God, yes, I agree with you, it is just a mere decision inside our head.

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
No, no hard feelings. I'm used to Internet interaction, as my post count shows .

Jokes are tricky on the Internet; it can be very hard to tell whether a stranger is being serious or sarcastic.

For example, I don't really know whether you're apologizing or mocking me in the above post...but I'll assume you're apologizing unless further interaction proves that assumption incorrect

Btw - you love me? I used to sign all my posts 'love Helen' but I stopped eventually because I realized that I can't honestly say I love a stranger in any meaningful sense. I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, which I consider to be an aspect of love. But that only scratches the surface of what love is, really.

Helen

Helen, I apologized in TRUE sense, never joking. Yes, I love you. I regard LOVE as GOD. Since, I believe in GOD, I believe in LOVE. I don't know what will happen to me after I STOP beliving in GOD. Perhaps I will start calling LOVE, sex

Lovingly yours,

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

brighid · 06-26-2003, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Well, I am NOT here to sell my e-marketing and technical writing services as you may have misconcieved from my posting of my website. Basically a website is the best biodata of anyone here. I post it because if one wants to know more about me, they can do so by clicking directly on it, instead of first seeing my profile, searching site link and then going there.

Amir,

I can't speak for the other poster but I also recommended you remove your link for no other purpose then fear of the reprisals and potential butchering you speak of if any one found out you were having these discussions. Anonymity seesm prudent in your case because one could very easily discover exactly who you are and any lurking infidel reporters could easily "out" you and have you suffer the consequences.

Brighid

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Amir,

I cannot imagine living in a country like Pakistan either, especially as a woman and an atheist. As a human being, I am hurt very deeply that you (and millions of others) must live under such heinous oppression. I hope the mullah's never discover your secret. If you wish to stay anonymous I wouldn't link to any identifying information that might allow some lurker to out you to authorities, but I am a terrible cynic when it comes to these sorts of things.

The oppression you live under, and the strict and tyrannical rule that your Islamic leaders deem necessary to keep its populous under control should be a clear indicator to the weakness of faith. If it cannot be maintained through freedom of thought and conscience, if it cannot be maintained without the use of an iron fist, the threat of death and torture, if it cannot be maintained through honest investigation, then it is weak, very weak and if there is a God out there such tactics cannot be that of a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent being. It is the human construct of evil people desiring control and power over others.

I would also like to address your comment about atheist martyrs. I will tell you that no atheist I know of desires martyrs in any way, shape or form!! I cannot even emphasize that enough. We believe this is the only life there is to lead and none of us a keen on ending it prematurely. There are circumstances under which I would choose to die for my beliefs, but I would not desire another to die in such a way.

You must do what is right for you, and under the oppressive circumstances you live under you must make choices I cannot fathom. Be safe and in whatever small way you can fight for freedom.

Brighid

I love internet, cause' it gives me access to people who can understand and sooth my pains here in Pakistan. I am not against Pakistan, but against its government, its social environment, its Police, its Army, everything here is CORRUPT. They are not representing any faith, but EVIL. Islam is a mere an EXCUSE. You would be surprised that hypocrites here mould the ISLAM, QURAN and other faiths to suit their own needs.

Anyways, thanks for wishing me good luck and your concerns about me and my family. I am lucky that baastard mullahs and the oppressor dictators have not been that SMART in internet or espionage over internet. Thank God.....

Love and respect for you,

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Amir,

As a mother I think my child is the most wonderful thing on this Earth as well. I am overwhelmed by the depth of my love for him and the unconditional nature of that love. However, I don't see the beauty of any God (which God should I choose?) in my child. I see the perfect melding of my genetic material with that of his biological father. I see the beauty of the human experience and how a person can make a difference in the world every time I look into his deep, dark brown eyes. He amazes me, but I do not need God to feel joy, happiness, reverence, respect, love, caring, or compassion.

I doubt there is an atheist parent who feels any differently then you feel about your child, or as I do about mine.

We want the same things for our children: a life of love, peace and happiness, a life of freedom, health and opportunity, a secure future so that child can grow to his/her fullest potential, a life where he/she can make a positive contribution to society in order to make this world a better place for all, a place free of fear, humiliation, torture, hunger, pain and disease, a place where they can marry, love, and raise children of their own under conditions better then our own.

Children are a gift, a gift of life. They are not endowed to us by a supernatural creator, but rather they come into this world by very natural means. Children are not our possessions, and although they are of us they are not ours to keep. As parents we have a great responsibility to the world when we bring children into it. Children are our gift to the world. That gift can either grow to be a destructive force, or a force for freedom, peace, love, tolerance and the good of mankind. Male or female they have equal worth, equal beauty and equal right to live a life of their own chosing.

Brighid

Wow... what a great feelings and expressed in what a great way... really great... I am not an English-speaking guy, hence, such words I could utter only in my own language.

However, how was your child DESIGNED in your womb before birth? Who makes his nose, ears, eyes, everything? Now you would argue, EVERYTHING IS JUST LIKE THAT. isn't it?

I don't want you to convert, neither you are trying me to. Since, I am not a scholar, or a preacher, but one thing i know is that LOVE is something nobody can see, but still, you see that in the eyes of your child. I have very few dictionary of words, or sentences to tell you how i feel about everything around me and this TYPING on keyboard can NEVER represent what, who really I am? So, don't know what to do......:banghead:

Amir Ali Tayyab

aatayyab · 06-26-2003, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Amir,

I can't speak for the other poster but I also recommended you remove your link for no other purpose then fear of the reprisals and potential butchering you speak of if any one found out you were having these discussions. Anonymity seesm prudent in your case because one could very easily discover exactly who you are and any lurking infidel reporters could easily "out" you and have you suffer the consequences.

Brighid

Oh.... I am fearing..... Oh...

Not at all.... it is an OPEN invitation to anyone here or in the world to simply note my address and phone number and report to any authority in the world that I am doing something wrong here. Instead of reporting, I would invite you to come to my home, have a cup of tea with me, handcuff me, and take me to the nearest police station for the crime of FREEDOM.

Of course, nobody can do that, and I am joking too. It is a mere discussion, nothing more than that. I appreciate your concerns, but I am quite BRAVE enough to go through any such persecution. Or in other words I would love to become a HERO in this way

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

brighid · 06-26-2003, 07:51 AM

Amir,

Thank you for your kind words. I think you are doing rather well with your English and thus far I am impressed with your ability to communicate in your non-native tongue.

Quote:

However, how was your child DESIGNED in your womb before birth? Who makes his nose, ears, eyes, everything? Now you would argue, EVERYTHING IS JUST LIKE THAT. isn't it?

No one designed my son. I didn't design my son. The contribution of my 23 chromosones and 23 chromosones from his biological father determined the development of every single part of his beautiful body and mind. That is a very simplistic explanation as I am not a scientist and I do not feel capable of explaning the finer details of fetal growth and development.

I would say that at one point in my life I did believe in a God. I was born "Catholic" as you were born "Muslim." We have both been indoctrinated into the faith of our communities. Unlike your situation, I have had the freedom to ask questions, explore different possibilities, weigh the available evidence and come to my own conclusions about God, the world, etc.

I define myself as a strong atheist with regard to Gods created by men (all Gods that is), but agnostic (not knowing with certainty) with regard to whether or not something that can be defined as God exists. Thus far I have found no credible evidence to support the claims of any God man worships or has worshipped in the past. I am open to the possibility of such a being existing, but I won't live my life believing He/She/It/They exist without something more then legends, myths, and feelings shaped by my childhood indoctrination.

I am fortunate that my child was born healthy, whole and capable. If my child was born defective, either mentally, physically, or otherwise I would not feel anyone or anything designed, or destined such a thing to happen. I wouldn't feel cursed, or punished either. I would feel sad because my child would face difficulties and may not be able to experience life as I would hope he could. I would think that something happened to interfere with the process of development: an environmental toxin mutating a gene, sickness interrupting the development of the fetus, injury, etc.

Somethings simply ARE.

Brighid

River · 06-26-2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aatayyab
Oh.... I am fearing..... Oh...

Of course, nobody can do that, and I am joking too. It is a mere discussion, nothing more than that. I appreciate your concerns, but I am quite BRAVE enough to go through any such persecution. Or in other words I would love to become a HERO in this way

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

O' Ali ,Amir ....Perhaps you do have some qualities of Ali ( the Son in law of the Prophet). Ali would continue his namaz/salat ( prayer) despite the fact that his opponents were shooting arrows at him. A brave soldier/philosopher , indeed.

-River

P.S.... it is said that people pick up some of the traits of the person whom they were labelled after.....

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