Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 04-12-2003, 12:49 PM

I received this announcement:

Quote:

An intergenerational and interfaith dialogue

Sunday, April 27, 2003

Public High School Cafeteria

Sunday April 27th

4:00-6:15 p.m.

Sponsors:

Interfaith Youth Leadership Program

Community Service Program of the Public Schools

Interfaith Action Alliance

Interfaith Clergy Association

Affirming Diversity/Celebrating Community

With Assistance from:

Public Conversations Project

The Alliance for Jewish, Christian and Muslim Understanding

This event will begin with the screening of a 19-minute clips reel from a PBS film in which three American Muslims speak about their faith and social values. Program participants will then take part in a small group dialogue and have an opportunity to share how their own faith inspires them in their daily lives. The program will conclude with reflections by local clergy and others who wish to speak about their experience of the dialogue.

Adults and Youth (sixth grade and up) should find the program to be interesting and enriching. Small group facilitation will be provided by local high school students from the Interfaith Youth Leadership Program.

Registration is encouraged, though not required. Those interested in attending can register by contacting etc�

Two things.

1: Do you think that it is constitutional for the public schools to be an official sponsor for this event?

2: Despite this being exclusionary as I see it as only an invitation to people who have a religion, I plan to go and I plan to share with the group what impact religion has in my life.

Any suggestions on content? I thought that I would start with the famous George H.W. Bush quote that atheists would not be considered good citizens or patriots because this is one nation under god.

Keep in mind that my town is very liberal and over 50% Jewish.

Toto · 04-12-2003, 01:21 PM

My gut feeling is that this is constitutional, especially with the way things have been going lately. The group is not pushing theology or religion. It is promoting interfaith understanding, which contravenes the principles of most of those religions.

All that aside, it wouldn't hurt to challenge the public schools, and ask for equal time for the non-religious point of view, especially if you can find a free thought organization to take part.

If fhe Interfaith Action Alliance is the group I am thinking of, they are very good on church state separation.

crazyfingers · 04-12-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
[B]My gut feeling is that this is constitutional, especially with the way things have been going lately. The group is not pushing theology or religion. It is promoting interfaith understanding, which contravenes the principles of most of those religions.

What I find most objectionable is that it will give people the "opportunity to share how their own faith inspires them in their daily lives. " If one has no religion, one is not invited to participate. The school should not be involved in something that only invites religious people to participate.

Quote:

All that aside, it wouldn't hurt to challenge the public schools, and ask for equal time for the non-religious point of view, especially if you can find a free thought organization to take part.

I've been waiting to see what response I get from an email that I sent questioning the exclusionary language. But I might.

I am not aware of any local freethought groups apart for several in Boston. I'm in the suburbs.

Quote:

If fhe Interfaith Action Alliance is the group I am thinking of, they are very good on church state separation.

Generally they are. But that doesn't mean that they are attuned to the fact that not everyone has a religion.

crazyfingers · 04-12-2003, 04:22 PM

I had an interesting response. I have decided to go to this event and say my thing.

This is from someone at the school and forwarded to me by the person who sent out the announcement.

Quote:

Hi David-

I was looking forward to your answer to the man from xxx St.

You can tell him that all of the organizations - and certainly including the synagogues, churches and mosques - are riddled with agnostics and atheists and that hearing about how someone copes with war or adversity from their different points of view is not the same as advocating those positions and that he is certainly welcome to speak as an atheist, agnostic or dog lover if he so chooses. You might tell him that in [our town], diversity means exactly that - diversity. And that's what we pride ourselves on. - Ilan

So, I'll be going and I need to decide what to say.

Jewel · 04-12-2003, 05:09 PM

Excellent, crazyfingers!

Although I am skeptical of the statement that "all of the organizations ... are riddled with agnostics and atheists ", I certainly wouldn't mind. I know many atheists and agnostics go to church with their families, so who knows?

Let us know how it goes.

-Jewel

Toto · 04-12-2003, 07:24 PM

Interfaith Alliance

Quote:

With over 150,000 members drawn from more than 65 faith traditions � and those with none at all � and local Alliances in 38 states, The Interfaith Alliance aims to encourage compassion, civility and mutual respect for human dignity in an increasingly diverse society.

We actively challenge those, such as the Religious Right, who foster intolerance and degrade the value of a multi-faith nation, instead protecting religious integrity in America by affirming the duty of people of faith and good will to promote the healing and positive role of religion in public life.

The 65 faith traditions include "Humanist", "Jewish, Reconstructionist" (close to being non-theist), Taoist, 4 schools of Buddhism, Unitarians, (also Scientologists and Church of Religious Science.)

crazyfingers · 04-12-2003, 07:29 PM

The question is, what would be good to say in less than 5 minutes?

crazyfingers · 04-12-2003, 07:42 PM

I'm thinking about describing what a weak atheist is, because that's what I am.

Then describing where I get my morals (the Golden Rule) and then give a few examples of the kinds of attitudes atheists face in our theistic culture.

Examples: Surveys show that 49% of Americans would not vote for an atheist. George H.W. Bush's statement about atheists not being citizens or patriots. Tom Brokaw on the NBC news a few weeks ago saying that there are "no athists in foxholes." My town is 50% Jewish. Hould Brokaw have been fired if he had said "no Jews in foxholes".

I'd like to work Church-State separation in somehow. Perhaps as related to values and the golden rule?

Toto · 04-12-2003, 07:52 PM

Say that you have found you can lead a good, moral life without religion, and that religion often just gets in the way, and that you do not begreudge anyone else their faith, but you hope that they extend their tolerance to those who don't believe in any god(s). Oh and by the way wouldn't the world be a more peaceful place without all these religious wars.

It appears that "Ilan" wants to know how your faith helps you deal with adversity, and you would have to admit that it would be easier if all those Iraqi babies and other collateral damage were just wafted up into heaven instead of dying of malnutrition or bullets, but that we still have to deal with reality and not fantasy. Hoping that a mythological God will come and rescue us or protect us is useless. We have to face the facts and work on peace with our own resources.

I wouldn't get into George HW Bush's alleged statement about atheists not being good Americans. It's too much of a diversion, and the current President Bush has been careful not to say anything comparable.

Your basic mission (should you choose to accept it) is to show all these good religious liberals that atheists are real people who don't have horns, but do have some social skills. Many of them are in fact atheists or agnostics in their hearts, and only hang around religious groups for social reasons. Some of them may chose to defect to the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.

joedad · 04-12-2003, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers
The question is, what would be good to say in less than 5 minutes?

What Toto said, but I might leave off any allusions to babies and bullets, depending on the audience.

You might get attention by asking, "Who among us can truly state that he or she believes in atheists? Do YOU believe in atheists?"

I've thought of attending a local interfaith function as an atheist just out of curiosity. My aim would be to expose atheism for what it is not.

To that end I would want people to come away with the impression that atheism has nothing to do with being immoral, intolerant, unpatriotic, extremist, uppity or anything so stereotypical. Maybe I'd even want folks to try to appreciate the fact that the majority of believers are atheistic to some degree, but that this doesn't make one unable to carry on socially and ethically, or unable to appreciate beauty. I think it could be pulled off very nicely.

I consider myself a person of faith but not of religion. I do not see the words "faith" and "religion" as somehow inextricably bound, at least not anymore. And from the link Toto posted, it sounds like such a message would be well received, clergy-sponsored or not.

joe

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04-12-2003, 01:21 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	My gut feeling is that this is constitutional, especially with the way things have been going lately. The group is not pushing theology or religion. It is promoting interfaith understanding, which contravenes the principles of most of those religions. All that aside, it wouldn't hurt to challenge the public schools, and ask for equal time for the non-religious point of view, especially if you can find a free thought organization to take part. If fhe Interfaith Action Alliance is the group I am thinking of, they are very good on church state separation.

04-12-2003, 05:09 PM	#5
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	Excellent, crazyfingers! Although I am skeptical of the statement that "all of the organizations ... are riddled with agnostics and atheists ", I certainly wouldn't mind. I know many atheists and agnostics go to church with their families, so who knows? Let us know how it goes. -Jewel

04-12-2003, 07:29 PM	#7
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	The question is, what would be good to say in less than 5 minutes?

04-12-2003, 07:42 PM	#8
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	I'm thinking about describing what a weak atheist is, because that's what I am. Then describing where I get my morals (the Golden Rule) and then give a few examples of the kinds of attitudes atheists face in our theistic culture. Examples: Surveys show that 49% of Americans would not vote for an atheist. George H.W. Bush's statement about atheists not being citizens or patriots. Tom Brokaw on the NBC news a few weeks ago saying that there are "no athists in foxholes." My town is 50% Jewish. Hould Brokaw have been fired if he had said "no Jews in foxholes". I'd like to work Church-State separation in somehow. Perhaps as related to values and the golden rule?

04-12-2003, 07:52 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Say that you have found you can lead a good, moral life without religion, and that religion often just gets in the way, and that you do not begreudge anyone else their faith, but you hope that they extend their tolerance to those who don't believe in any god(s). Oh and by the way wouldn't the world be a more peaceful place without all these religious wars. It appears that "Ilan" wants to know how your faith helps you deal with adversity, and you would have to admit that it would be easier if all those Iraqi babies and other collateral damage were just wafted up into heaven instead of dying of malnutrition or bullets, but that we still have to deal with reality and not fantasy. Hoping that a mythological God will come and rescue us or protect us is useless. We have to face the facts and work on peace with our own resources. I wouldn't get into George HW Bush's alleged statement about atheists not being good Americans. It's too much of a diversion, and the current President Bush has been careful not to say anything comparable. Your basic mission (should you choose to accept it) is to show all these good religious liberals that atheists are real people who don't have horns, but do have some social skills. Many of them are in fact atheists or agnostics in their hearts, and only hang around religious groups for social reasons. Some of them may chose to defect to the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.

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