Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 01-15-2002, 04:40 AM

I happened to steal a few mins to lurk...
rwThe question that arises revolves around that "us" you have referred to here. Is there an "us" independent of our thoughts? Are they actually two seperate attributes of our minds? Is our percieved identity actually in control of our thought processes or do our thoughts flow regardless of our self image?

jaliet: I believe that our brains are tabla rasa at the time of birth. And then based on our genetic make up, environment and biochemical/ hormonal make-up, we process the info that we perceive differently. After processing this info, we have knowledge. We create a worldview and thus our personalities evolve. In other words, we create ourselves, but what we end up creating is based on the above factors. Our thoughts are basically guided by some basic assumptions, fears, knowledge and needs.

There is the subconscious too which "protects" while at the same time influences our direction of thought.
Thus "us"Our selves is/ are made up of all our experiences/ knowledge, our interpretation of those experiences, our fears and our formative environment - which influences our worldview, our attitides, preferences etc.
Our thoughts OTOH, are mental objects that are either being processed, or are awaiting processing. E.g. I can say I have been thinking about marrying Assumpta. Ie, its a thought at the back of my mind. When we are also asking ourselves, Why believe there is a greater purpose to this life? Our thoughts while addressing such a question will be shaped by our selves - ie, what we know, what we believe, what we are afraid of and our perspective. (Remember the example of Someone seeing a vase and someone else seeing two faces facing each other?).

So the answer to your Q, whether Us and our thoughts are different or the same, the answer is no, for the above reasons. There is still an us, independent of our thoughts - like when we are dreaming/ sleeping etc. Though I'd say who we are determines what we think or how we think - about certain things.
Our thoughts dont flow regardless of our self image. I'd say though that rather than self-image, our needs are more influential when it comes to what we think.

Someone could help here with some links on John Locke, David Hume, Descartes, Neitzche etc, theiries of knowledge. Anyone?

rw: Are we like children residing on an island surrounded by the rivers of our thoughts, picking an chosing what to drag on shore and what to let drift on by?

jaliet: Yes, if you think of the "children" as our brains and the "rivers of thoughts" as a collection of our experiences, our emotions, our interpretations of those experiences, our fears and needs (ie our psychological make up). What we get when we provide some input to the brain (eg a question) will be influenced by our psychological make-up and mental capacity(genetic) - which will determine whether we use the experiences to get a correct answer of whether we'll use the fears, needs and environment to lead us to answers.

rw: Or are we like a pilot at the controls of a machine that we operate using mental and emotional levers to regulate our existence?

jaliet: This analogy is too mechanical but its Ok because the brain, I believe, is like a machine. But how it works will depend on how its programmed. Its programmed directly through sensory inputs(knowledge), hormonal inputs and other biochemical inputs. The initial state of the "machine" also plays a part and its state is determined by genetic factors. So that too, plays a role. In how we will operate the helicopter.

rw: How did we come to have this IDENTITY we percieve within ourselves? This distinct point of internal focus that appears to be served by our physical bodies even as we dedicate its energies to serving the needs and demands of our physical existence has become who we percieve ourselves to be. We are under constant pressure to produce choices.

jaliet: I believe self-preservation is simply an evolutionary mechanism that goes hand-in hand with survival for the fittest. Its got nothing to do with our "selves". Our primal fears include death, pain, rejection etc. And fear, is an evolutionary mechanism - I believe. We all have fears.

I agree with your analogy of a generator. But that is only our state at our first years in this world. After we have used our brains to process knowledge, our brains develop, and our personalities are built - thus aour minds emerge. So, unlike the generator with just generates without changing, what we process, and how we process makes us who we are - it influences how we will process future inputs. Ie, our brain capabilities, our environment, biochemical make-up etc, play a part in making our minds - our selves.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-15-2002, 07:12 AM

I hear LOTS of voices. Some good, some bad, some bastards that I hate. Well, mostly bastards that I hate. In fact, all but ONE bastard that I hate.

excreationist · 01-15-2002, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Christ:
I hear LOTS of voices. Some good, some bad, some bastards that I hate. Well, mostly bastards that I hate. In fact, all but ONE bastard that I hate.

Do you have schizophrenia then?

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-15-2002, 07:54 AM

I suppose so. I haven't got myself diagnosed yet though.

Not like I obey them voices or anything...

Mad Kally · 01-15-2002, 08:12 AM

Jesus Christ,
Are the voices inside your head or do they seem to come from an external source? (outside your head)

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

excreationist · 01-15-2002, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Christ:
I suppose so. I haven't got myself diagnosed yet though.

Not like I obey them voices or anything...

Well I guess it's ok if they aren't bothering you.... so what do the voices say? And are there a couple different voices?

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-15-2002, 12:37 PM

First question:

They come from both inside and outsides, sometimes. I do not always know though. THe most vocal and bastard of them is entirely internal though, but he has a name (I guess he does.)

What do they tell me?

A sampling, from one of their more talkative states:

"Kill! KILL! Death death death death!!! KILL HER! KILL HER!! BURN HER! RAPE!! KILL!!! KILL!!!"
And so on. Not entirely imaginative, but when they start up, they really, really, get going. Sometimes they will bring forth mental images, pictures that remain indelible within my mind, and narrate them, always extolling whatever I(one of the two central figures, but always from the rear) am doing--mostly harming a woman that I care for or (less frequently) someone who I hate. I can't ever shake them.

Mad Kally · 01-15-2002, 01:01 PM

JC,
Have you told anyone about the voices? Are you aware that there are medications that could help?

Do you think it's possible you could ever act on what they tell you to do?

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-15-2002, 01:15 PM

No, I haven't really discussed them.Every time I've been to a psychologist, something else was bothering me, and they had shut up for a while. I know that medications could help with them, but they aren't always there. Just when I really really don't want to hear their siren cry. I am perhaps afraid that I will one day give into them, but I doubt that I will. THey tell me to do too much that I refuse to do.

Mad Kally · 01-15-2002, 01:38 PM

JC,
I'm really concerned. Please tell someone about the voices. What might happen if you become extremely angry someday and the voices and/or your thoughts go completely out of control. You never know. I'm sure you don't want to harm yourself or others. There are new medications that can stop all that.

Do you mind if I ask you how old you are and how old you were when you first heard the voices?

01-15-2002, 04:40 AM	#51
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	I happened to steal a few mins to lurk... rwThe question that arises revolves around that "us" you have referred to here. Is there an "us" independent of our thoughts? Are they actually two seperate attributes of our minds? Is our percieved identity actually in control of our thought processes or do our thoughts flow regardless of our self image? jaliet: I believe that our brains are tabla rasa at the time of birth. And then based on our genetic make up, environment and biochemical/ hormonal make-up, we process the info that we perceive differently. After processing this info, we have knowledge. We create a worldview and thus our personalities evolve. In other words, we create ourselves, but what we end up creating is based on the above factors. Our thoughts are basically guided by some basic assumptions, fears, knowledge and needs. There is the subconscious too which "protects" while at the same time influences our direction of thought. Thus "us"Our selves is/ are made up of all our experiences/ knowledge, our interpretation of those experiences, our fears and our formative environment - which influences our worldview, our attitides, preferences etc. Our thoughts OTOH, are mental objects that are either being processed, or are awaiting processing. E.g. I can say I have been thinking about marrying Assumpta. Ie, its a thought at the back of my mind. When we are also asking ourselves, Why believe there is a greater purpose to this life? Our thoughts while addressing such a question will be shaped by our selves - ie, what we know, what we believe, what we are afraid of and our perspective. (Remember the example of Someone seeing a vase and someone else seeing two faces facing each other?). So the answer to your Q, whether Us and our thoughts are different or the same, the answer is no, for the above reasons. There is still an us, independent of our thoughts - like when we are dreaming/ sleeping etc. Though I'd say who we are determines what we think or how we think - about certain things. Our thoughts dont flow regardless of our self image. I'd say though that rather than self-image, our needs are more influential when it comes to what we think. Someone could help here with some links on John Locke, David Hume, Descartes, Neitzche etc, theiries of knowledge. Anyone? rw: Are we like children residing on an island surrounded by the rivers of our thoughts, picking an chosing what to drag on shore and what to let drift on by? jaliet: Yes, if you think of the "children" as our brains and the "rivers of thoughts" as a collection of our experiences, our emotions, our interpretations of those experiences, our fears and needs (ie our psychological make up). What we get when we provide some input to the brain (eg a question) will be influenced by our psychological make-up and mental capacity(genetic) - which will determine whether we use the experiences to get a correct answer of whether we'll use the fears, needs and environment to lead us to answers. rw: Or are we like a pilot at the controls of a machine that we operate using mental and emotional levers to regulate our existence? jaliet: This analogy is too mechanical but its Ok because the brain, I believe, is like a machine. But how it works will depend on how its programmed. Its programmed directly through sensory inputs(knowledge), hormonal inputs and other biochemical inputs. The initial state of the "machine" also plays a part and its state is determined by genetic factors. So that too, plays a role. In how we will operate the helicopter. rw: How did we come to have this IDENTITY we percieve within ourselves? This distinct point of internal focus that appears to be served by our physical bodies even as we dedicate its energies to serving the needs and demands of our physical existence has become who we percieve ourselves to be. We are under constant pressure to produce choices. jaliet: I believe self-preservation is simply an evolutionary mechanism that goes hand-in hand with survival for the fittest. Its got nothing to do with our "selves". Our primal fears include death, pain, rejection etc. And fear, is an evolutionary mechanism - I believe. We all have fears. I agree with your analogy of a generator. But that is only our state at our first years in this world. After we have used our brains to process knowledge, our brains develop, and our personalities are built - thus aour minds emerge. So, unlike the generator with just generates without changing, what we process, and how we process makes us who we are - it influences how we will process future inputs. Ie, our brain capabilities, our environment, biochemical make-up etc, play a part in making our minds - our selves. [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]</p>

01-15-2002, 08:12 AM	#55
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Jesus Christ, Are the voices inside your head or do they seem to come from an external source? (outside your head) [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

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01-15-2002, 07:12 AM	#52
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	I hear LOTS of voices. Some good, some bad, some bastards that I hate. Well, mostly bastards that I hate. In fact, all but ONE bastard that I hate.

01-15-2002, 07:54 AM	#54
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	I suppose so. I haven't got myself diagnosed yet though. Not like I obey them voices or anything...

01-15-2002, 12:37 PM	#57
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	First question: They come from both inside and outsides, sometimes. I do not always know though. THe most vocal and bastard of them is entirely internal though, but he has a name (I guess he does.) What do they tell me? A sampling, from one of their more talkative states: "Kill! KILL! Death death death death!!! KILL HER! KILL HER!! BURN HER! RAPE!! KILL!!! KILL!!!" And so on. Not entirely imaginative, but when they start up, they really, really, get going. Sometimes they will bring forth mental images, pictures that remain indelible within my mind, and narrate them, always extolling whatever I(one of the two central figures, but always from the rear) am doing--mostly harming a woman that I care for or (less frequently) someone who I hate. I can't ever shake them.

01-15-2002, 01:01 PM	#58
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	JC, Have you told anyone about the voices? Are you aware that there are medications that could help? Do you think it's possible you could ever act on what they tell you to do?

01-15-2002, 01:15 PM	#59
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	No, I haven't really discussed them.Every time I've been to a psychologist, something else was bothering me, and they had shut up for a while. I know that medications could help with them, but they aren't always there. Just when I really really don't want to hear their siren cry. I am perhaps afraid that I will one day give into them, but I doubt that I will. THey tell me to do too much that I refuse to do.

01-15-2002, 01:38 PM	#60
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	JC, I'm really concerned. Please tell someone about the voices. What might happen if you become extremely angry someday and the voices and/or your thoughts go completely out of control. You never know. I'm sure you don't want to harm yourself or others. There are new medications that can stop all that. Do you mind if I ask you how old you are and how old you were when you first heard the voices?

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