Ronin

How did you feel about this treatment, Muffinstuffer?

Can you empathize with atheist children exposed to Godspeak in their morning pledge?

Do you feel that Teacher neutrality on this issue is the best course of action?

When I was in elementary school, I saw a kid push another kid to the ground during recess because he was carrying his bible around. I was eleven at the time, and the kid doing the pushing was my baptist step-cousin...the bible-toter was a catholic.

Apparently, the catholic asked my cousin if he would like to come to catechism with him on Sunday and that was all it took to set him off.

The teacher in charge of recess entered the scene, took the bible away from the catholic and gave my cousin a complete walk for the assault.

The child was devastated. The bible was his communion bible and had his rosary beads tucked inside an inner pocket.

I offered him mine, but he refused, angrily...and ran off.

That was one of the first times I realized that religions weren't really about Gods or understanding the universe at all...they were about divisive symbols and separation.

Absolutely nothing has happened in my adult life to alter that observation.

Rational BAC

If it helps any-------I never voted for Bush JR. (Or senior.) Don't plan to either

And his tendency to mix religion with politics and national goals does worry me some.

But what the hell----------we survived Carter didn't we?

I think the majority of Christians are the mild mannered, live and let live types. Nothing wrong with that. Actually a good thing really. Everybody has to learn to fight his own battles. Part of growing up.

Muffinstuffer

Um, not really, considering I don't know of hardly ANY schools in which the Pledge is still recited, and fewer still that actually contain the words 'under God.'

Neutrality? Sure....the problem is that VERY few teachers I knew were completely neutral. Obviously that is tough to do, but the vast majority of teachers I knew had something against Christianity.

Well, no offense intended, but is this actually 100% true, or is it because you have gone LOOKING for the division and the separation that occurs when people screw it up for the rest of the religion?

Rhea

You seem to have been in a remarkably atypical bubble.

You may consider my entire school system (here in NY) to be a christian-biased, "Under God" swearing district.

Starboy

Definitely here in the panhandle of Florida it’s all Christian all the time. This is god’s country, love it or leave it. I could tell you some stories of Christian lies, fraud and manipulations. And don’t forget our favorite Christian, Hovind.

Creation Science Evangelism

This place if lousy with frauds like that well into Georgia.

Starboy

Rational BAC

Panhandle of Florida? The old Bible belt, eh?


I do feel sorry for you Starboy.

You must definitely feel out of place there.

You could of course move to a more civilized area of this very large nation.

I remember when I went to high school in the late 50's in Orlando------about as back water a Bible-belt town as could be imagined back then. (Not true today, of course. Very cosmopolitan area now.)
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Just noticed that you live in Tallahassee. My old alma mater=FSU.

College towns aren't that bad. I know there have to be at least some intellectuals living in Tally. You could be living in Quincy you know.

Ronin

Surely you have heard of the recent legal ruckus caused by Dr. Michael Newdow.

Perhaps you are working on pulpit perception and not reality.

Here is the statute for my state ~

MS State Law

The currently imposed Pledge contains the words 'under God'. Only the original, pre 1954, version does not...and it is no longer used.

Armed with this knowledge, can you now empathize with atheist children exposed to this Godspeak at institutions they are compelled to attend?

As long as you agree with me that the ideal is neutrality and not governmentally imposed Godspeak then our vastly differing experiences are moot.

I hope to count on you to write your state representatives and voice your opinion against Pennsylvania Act 157.

None taken, Muffinstuffer, as I doubted the veracity of your personal anecdote for similar reasons.

I affirm that my testimony is true.

Hopefully, you can do the same, though I do not require it of you.

Muffinstuffer

No, I live in Virginia. There's loads of churches around here but I don't know of any churches that MAKE kids say the Pledge, and of those that I do know of, they don't include the words 'under God.'

Muffinstuffer

Sure, if they are COMPELLED to attend. Although I should probably point out that I can empathize with atheist CHILDREN who are compelled to attend, and not children of ATHEISTS that are compelled to attend. I don't know if this is true - I believe that it is - but from what I understand, Newdow's wife is a Christian and Newdow's daughter supposedly 'had no problem' saying the Pledge. I may be mistaken, and if so, that's fine.



I'll have to look into that. However, I should point out that I think the actual IDEAL would be a situation where the kids had the choice on what to do. In other words, would this 'neutrality' be forced? If the kids WANTED to say the pledge - if the teacher said "Who wants to? Does anyone not want to?" and the kids all said "Hooray!" would that neutrality then be enforced? If so, then I couldn't support it. If it truly IS neutral, sure I could support it.



I affirm that mine is true as well.

Rational BAC

I never had a problem with the "under God" part of the Pledge.

I didn't learn it that way as a kid. Never could remember where to "stick it in" (about the only place it really flows nicely with the rhythm is at the end of the Pledge) Didn't take very long for me, as a kid, to give up on the whole project and just leave "under God" out----just the way I learned it the first time.

Funny thing is ---------in all the almost 50 years time after Congress mandated the change (during the McCarthyist mid 50's) that I have been saying the Pledge without "under God"----------Absolutely NOBODY has ever noticed.

So what's the big deal?
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As an aside, and I probably have said this before on other threads-----------------I did make a conscious decision in my 20's to also leave out "indivisible" from the Pledge (since I sincerely believe that our Constitution does allow secession by the 10th amendment----------and I would not like to lie while saying an oath.)--------

(actually, most of the time I replace "indivisible" with "divisible" since that works quite nicely for my purposes, and doesn't interrupt the rhythm of the words.)

------And NOBODY has ever noticed that either.


I figure Congress can "mandate" anything they damned well please. And I as an American citizen can also mandate for myself anything I damned well please-------------at least as far as an oath is concerned.