theophilus

Hope this won't spoil your stereotype, but I also oppose religion in public schools, but that's because I oppose government directed education. Education is inherently a values laden enterprise. The government is not competent to decide which of the competing values systems will be inculcated into the young. That is for parents and their shared communities.

Religion in public life is a fact. Government has neither the authority nor responsibility to regulate it's "free exercise."

That there should be a separation of church "institutions," and state "institutions," there is no possibility of separating religious sentiments, even atheism, from people's political perspective.

It is interesting to observe, however, that separation of church and state is a uniquely Protestant idea which would not endure the emergence of either Catholic or Moslem majorities.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]</p>

Panta Pei

“It is interesting to observe, however, that separation of church and state is a uniquely Protestant idea which would not endure the emergence of either Catholic or Moslem majorities.”

Interesting stereotype you have there, theophilus


However, your assertion simply does not correspond with the political environment currently in plain view. A fundamentalist sect of whichever brand of supernaturalism will most likely always be oppressively theocratic. Currently, in this country (USA), the Protestants are leading the charge.

My readings, humble as they are, indicate that a more deistic/naturalistic version of spirituality prevailed at the time of the founding of the US and provided the framework for SOCAS.

Your other points are right on. By the way, the gay and lesbian lifestyle is also very much a fact in public life and government has neither the authority nor responsibility to regulate its “free exercise”.

Thanks for your time

Canucklehead

Howdy.

Sorry, pal, but I assume you're communicated with people before. Same rules here, so you'll take what you get.

Fame and fortune.

Seriously, why do you think? Because its what the evidence points to.

I was raised Presbetyrian by my mother. My father has always been an atheist (for as long as I've been alive, anyway), but he let my mother brainwash me in my youth.

Depends what you mean. I can't lie to myself, so atheism is the only religious view I can hold, and trying to force myself to believe has made ym feel lousy when I did try it.

On the other hand, I do wish I lived in a world were bad things happened for a reason, and justice was meted out in the afterlife to those who escaped it in this. I also with I was hung like a bear, but somethings aren't in the cards.

At an atheist site? Are you surprised to see water in your toilet bowl too?

This bothered me when I first started posting here too. After a while, when you see the crap that fundies and general idiots spew constantly here (for example, I literally lost count within a month how many times I saw some brainiac "invent" Pascal's Wager), you'd be testy too.

You can't be that intelligent, or you'd know that the scientific origins of the universe do involve more than random chance.

Yeah, right. You're not a Christian, but you capitalize the deirifics like them.

Whoah. I'm floored.

I just have one question: what planet have you been living on? Let us review: the entirety of the origins of humanity and the earth can be completely described in a few hundred words in the version where god did it. In the scientific version, book after book after book is needed to even begin understanding it.

Yeah, the religious version does require more work.

Oh, and about most Americans hating to think: notice that most of you are theists too. Amazing, eh?

First of all, why capitalize "ironic"?

Secondly, what do you think church is, if not mutual reinforcement?

I post at infidels.org because I like being able to speak with other atheists from time to time. I live the other 99% of my life at a Catholic college, for crying out loud! There's a Basilian priest in my dorm, and I work for nuns, for crying out loud!

I agree completely.

Congrats, you just proved yourself to be an idiot twice over. Firstly, the only difference between "micro" and "macro" evolution is that not even the densest fundy can deny micro. Secondly, do some fricking reading before you decide evolution is infeasible.

Wow. That is just...wrong. Completely, utterly, and beyond doubt.

Wow again. Once more, utterly wrong. Micrbiology just helps to explain things, including evolution.

Well, you've saved me another "wow". You think those arguments are post-1975? They're been reefuted since before my grandfather was born.

As I said, I'd love for their to be one. Unfortunately, the evidence says no.

Wow. Did you do any reading about the arguments for and against a god before you came here? Did you even think about it all? Listen closely:

YOU CAN MEASURE AND QUANTIFY GRAVITY!!!!!!!!!! IT HAS RULES AND LAWS AND OBSERVABLE QUALITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moron.

By the same token, if my friend came to me and told me he just bought a Cofee Crisp, I'd believe him right off the bat.

The point is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Again, I reiterate: believing in a divine universe is dead simple compared to actually doing research and trying to understand reality. Ease of belief is in fact, I expect, one of the two main reasons behind religious faith (the other being brainwashing, pure and simple).

Once again, I'd love to live in a world were there was absolute good and absolute evil, where the good were rewarded and the wicked punished. It just ain't so.

A child dies once every minute. 300,000 thousand Somalis die in a matter of months from starvation. Seven million men women and children are exterminated in concentration camps. 17 million men die fighting World War II. Babies in Africa stand a better chance of dying than living. All this and more.

And say "Boo freaking hoo" to this? You disgust me beyond the ability to convey with words.

Yeah, them kids and babies really sinned up a storm. You're beyond filth.

What a horrible world it would be in no one died in fear, pain and horror.

Is this a condemnation? We use science (that we wouldn't have if the church had its way) to help make life better? To do the things a benevolent god should be doing anyway? So what, how is that wrong.

No, I think prayer works the same way as a complaint letter to the cable company: it disappears into the void.

No, moron, that stuff's just icing on the cake. The evidence of the world around us is what says there's no god.

Exactly. The problem is that people like Dubya want MANDATORY school prayer. They want the Ten Commandments (and only the Christian laws) to be hung in schools. They want to push their religion down everyone's throats.

Oh no, you're sent to school, forced to pray or stand out for the ridicule of your peers, you should look away. And if you keep getting robbed, you should move. After all, it may be a right not to be stolen from, but its not like the thief is really taking it away from you. He's just taking it away from you RIGHT THERE.

Idiot, the idea of keeping it out of the public arena is that it creates a level playing field.

Well, gee, why don't you just not read them?

You're right, that is a direct response to the so-called Jesus fish. Then again, the cross is nothing more than a response to the killing of Jesus by the Romans, isn't it?

Let's see, why on Earth would we be intolerant about attempts to return to status quo, only recently ended, in the historical view, of religious discrimination? Why oh why should we try to oppose it?

Absolutely crazy thought: maybe schools should spend a little more time teaching people, to the point weere the average graduate can read the front page of the New York Times without sounding out the words, and let parents actually raise the children, like they should.

Allow me to finish my reply to your idiocy with a quote from my favourite television series:

Smeg off, you puddle of congealed monkey vomit.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Canucklehead ]

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Canucklehead ]

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Canucklehead ]</p>

Jamie_L

I would add that Government has neither the authority nor responsibility to endorse or support religion, specifically or in general. Government has the responsibility to not marginalize, give unfair treatment, or give the appearance of unfair treatment to any particular religion.

Jamie

Boro Nut

There's something in your eyes that can't disguise my own surprise I've not heard these lies before...

Dum dee dum dum dum

...And then you go an spoil it all by forgetting something stupid, like a paragraph.

Jamie_L

I've discovered my problem. I can't sense the divine presence because I'm not on steroids. If only I'd known that sooner, I could have given myself shots in the ass and discovered the glory of God.

Jamie

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

ImGod

Interesting thing I saw on Fox News last night regarding what I had posted earlier. A lady in LA was suing the school district for studying different religions in a "diversity class" (can't remember the name but it's similar to this).

They had dressed in middle eastern attire and pretended to pray as muslims. She said that her son should not have been exposed to a religion in that manner, and religious study sould be removed from the diversity class. Her opinion is that it is no different than having communion in class (she was catholic).

I'm looking for the news article. It was on Brit Hume's show, but late at night so I'm fuzzy on some of the particulars. Funny coincedence though.

Original post &lt;snip&gt;:

2) The separation of church and state debate could be ended doing the following. Pass a law rotating the state-sponsored religion each year between the major religions of the world, and throw in secular views (pantheism, agnosticism, and atheism). All schools would have to teach and practice only that religion that year. That way it's fair. The christian, jewish, muslim, atheist, buddhist, populations can all feel what it's like when they are forced to pray, or say pledges, to other gods.

I'm sure the separation of church and state issue would be picked up by more organizations than just the ACLU. You see, there is no problem with god in schools, as long as you think it's yours. When christians are forced to take and oath to allah, or pray to Mecca, the christian organizations would blow a gasket and call for the re-instatement of seperation of church and state.