Downsindrone

Hello all...
I'm new to this board so go easy on me
I have some questions for your general population...

1. What are your motivations for being a "freethinker?
2.Were you raised this way or did you come to this conclusion later on in life?
3. Do you find this lifestyle emotionaly sastisfying?

Ok well I guess I'll stop numbering them...
But I do have a few more comments... This forum seems to be full of real intelligent people and thats why it surprises me to see such skeptisism in God. But for all the maturity I see here, most threads are still tainted with sarcastic remarks about "fundies" etc. Why is this? Why so much sarcasm and bitterness? I myself am not "christian" but I do consider myself much too intelligent to look around me and claim that this all came about by random chance. I understand that God is one tough character to understand, but why is it so important to fully understand Him? It seems most of you want something that's easy to comprehend. Believing in God takes effort and work, and as we know most Americans hate thinking too much. In fact I think it's quite Ironic that you call yourselves "freethinkers", yet you provide yourselves with a forum to reassure yourselves that other people think just like you.
I do realize that some very intelligent debates go on here, and thats good. Your belief(or non-belief) system SHOULD be tested a lot! If it dosent than it isnt real.
To me, it seems crazy to assume that evolution(macro) is even feasible. Why? Well it seems to be popular opinion here that there is no evidence for creationism and all of it goes toward evolution. I have a catalog of books here, one list is Pro evolution, the other is con... There is a decided trend as far as the dates in which they were published. All pro evolutuion books, begginning with Orgins were written constantly from 1871 on. They died down, and then damn near stopped(I said damn near, not all) around 1980. All the anti evolution books were written 1975 or so on. With the introduction of microbiology and other forms of science, there are more questions forming that evolution dosent answer. It goes against the laws of thermodynamics and Probablilty... wow... how did I get off into that? but my point that I was making is that it seems that most atheists, or agnostics just dont want there to be a supernatural reason for there existence.
What do you base your lack of beliefs on? Because you cant see God? Well I cant see gravity but it still affects my life everyday. Sadly we are a "show me" society. If your friend came to you and said hey I just bought a hummer! What is your first reaction? LET ME SEE IT!!
When we hear of god, that is what we want, to see him. To make him turn the sky orange, to prove he's real.
We as a society want "instant gratification"
Hungry? Why Wait?
That is our mentality. Believing in God takes far too much effort than most of us are willing to put out, and that, I think is the reaon behind most secular faiths. Thinking about heaven, hell and sin and such, are unpleasent thoughts, so we avoid them by deleting God, hence deleting all the previously mentioned "undesirables."
A lot of people also say "well the world is full of suffering and hate so God isnt real" Or "my mom died, so God isnt really here."
Boo freaking hoo...
Give me a break! Again, what America wants as a whole is a brady bunch white mans barbecue of good feelings and no unpleasent aftertaste of the wages of hate and sin etc.
We are a Pill-popping nation, Depressed? take a pill... headache? pill... Cant sleep? pill... Dont want a baby? pill...
People think prayer works the same way. "God I want a million dollars" Well I didnt get it? well then God isnt real! You think that prayer is the same as a pill, it needs to work and work FAST! And when it dosent then you get pissed off at God and say he dosent exist.
Another thing I'm wondering about is, why all the fuss over separation of church and state? And this goes towards christians TOO. Christians complain and say they want God back in schools, but he never left. Prayer is still aloud and no one gets in trouble for praying or reading a bible or anything. so SHUT UP about it already!
Ok to the atheists, i read lot of news about the school that got in trouble for having a God bless USA on thier sign. Well, heres an Idea for anyone who gets offended... LOOK AWAY.
No one is forcing your child to believe in God or Jebuz or Satan himself.
Look, I agree that most Christians are screwed up... they believe what they do because they were raised to, not because they feel it. Me personally I believe that God takes an active part in my life. And that the bible provides me with guidance and direction. I no longer attend the elitist cult know as "church." Mainly because well, it sucks and doesent provide me with any spirtual fullfillment. For those that it does help, well good for you...Stop sending me pamphlets.
It seems that the secular lifestyle is littered with Anti everything propaganda, like the evolution fish banner I'm looking at right now. It seems to be aimed at being "cool to be against those religious dorks!"
Hey, I like pissing of the right wings as much as the next guy, they deserve it! But being so apparantly cloesed-minded about it isnt going to help things much. Geez I read some of the "activities you shouldnt allow at your school," which I think was in this website. It had freaking John Jacobs and the power team. Are you stupid? This group came to my school when I was like 9 and all they tell you is to believe in yourself. Isnt that what you tell people to do? My little sister tells me this is still all they tell you. If thats the kind of things you want banned in schools, maybe you should redo your policy or something.
Ok, I'm not mad or anything but I just want some sincere answers to sincere questions. Like I said, the majority of you seem to be very smart, so I would like some earnest responses.
Thanks and take care of yourselves!

lpetrich

Because that's what I think is the truth.

I've believed in my beliefs for a long time; I've never seen any reason to think otherwise. If I seriously believed in an afterlife, I'd be so consumed with curiosity about it that I'd try to go there by committing suicide. But I'm still alive.

I've never given that question much thought.

Consider your beliefs about Zeus, Jupiter, Ahura Mazda, Marduk, Amon-Ra, Brahma, etc. and you will have an insight as to our skepticism about the Biblical God.

Most likely because they often act intellectually lame and blockheaded.

Then what do you believe about Jesus Christ? Do you think that he was a myth? Only a man and not a particularly wise one at that?

"God or chance" -- a totally specious dichotomy. I call on you to justify your ignoring the deities of other religions, such hypotheses as elves and fairies everywhere doing the designing, and the hypothesis that the Universe follows natural laws which allow us to come into existence.

Enjoy your favorite fantasy being.

Has special creation ever been observed under laboratory conditions?

Evolution has, although it's relatively small-scale evolution.

Which catalog of books are you using? I've seen oodles of stuff on evolution published over the last few decades.

Explain what you mean. If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't use those arguments.

There could be a "natural" reason: extraterrestrial visitors or time travelers. In fact, their limited powers and fallibility could explain a lot.

I lost patience here...

Downsindrone

Thanks for the response...
As far as evolution and how it defies probability? Well I thought this went without saying but...
Do you believe that a tornado blowing through a junkyard could create a fully functioning 747? the answer is yes if you believe in darwinistic macroevolution. The odds are ZERO
As far as thermodynamics, look up the second law... having to do with entropy, or the disorganization of the universe. The universe is devolving not evolving.
What do I believe about jesus?
He was a very wise man who tought things that were radical in His time.
Watch the last temptation of Christ.(a great movie)
I dont ignore the other deities... I think all religion is crap and that people need to find God on thier own terms, not what some stupid pastor says.
Evolution has been proved? heh... ok...
When? Where? oh yeah thats right, it hasn't.
If you are talking about the miller experiment, they falsified the results by starting with conditions they knew would be favorable to the results they wanted.
What did I mean about microbiology? Well with the advent of new technology we are able to break the cell down into parts we never thought possible and we see that a 130 year old theory is incorrect, mainly because he lacked the technology to see what we see today.
Sorry you lost patience with this discussion, hope you have more later
Take care of yourselves

Vorkosigan

You want earnest, you can have it. But remember the old saw about watching what you wish for....

Why so much sarcasm and bitterness? I myself am not "christian" but I do consider myself much too intelligent to look around me and claim that this all came about by random chance.

Ah, I see. You don't engage in, and disaprove of, sarcastic put-downs, but you are "much too intelligent" to believe this came about by random chance. If "much too intelligent" is not a condescending put-down, what would you say it is?

I am glad you are intelligent enough to grasp the difference between "randomness" and "determinism" and understand that "random chance" -- a fundie catchphrase if I've ever heard one -- has no place in the selection processes that have led to the development of this universe.

Ok to the atheists, i read lot of news about the school that got in trouble for having a God bless USA on thier sign. Well, heres an Idea for anyone who gets offended... LOOK AWAY.

How democratic of you to patronize both sides in the theism - atheism debate. You're an equal opportunity intellectual snob, I see.


Hey, I like pissing of the right wings as much as the next guy, they deserve it! But being so apparantly cloesed-minded about it isnt going to help things much. Geez I read some of the "activities you shouldnt allow at your school," which I think was in this website. It had freaking John Jacobs and the power team. Are you stupid? This group came to my school when I was like 9 and all they tell you is to believe in yourself. Isnt that what you tell people to do? My little sister tells me this is still all they tell you. If thats the kind of things you want banned in schools, maybe you should redo your policy or something.

John Jacobs and the Power Team are an overtly Christian performance group and as such, may not perform at a venue, such as school, which by law must be secular and nuetral between religions. I assume you advocate respect for the law.

All the anti evolution books were written 1975 or so on. With the introduction of microbiology and other forms of science, there are more questions forming that evolution dosent answer. It goes against the laws of thermodynamics and ProbabliltyIt goes against the laws of thermodynamics and Probablilty...

For a lofty intellect such as yourself, it should be simple to explain to us lowly atheists and agnostics how the laws of thermodynamics make evolution impossible. This is a fact unknown to scientists, who for some bizarre reason think that evolution is compatible with the laws of thermodynamics. Why don't you go over to the evolution-creation forum, and post this there? They'd welcome the privilege to engage with a mighty mind like your own.

All pro evolutuion books, begginning with Orgins were written constantly from 1871 on. They died down, and then damn near stopped(I said damn near, not all) around 1980

Also, many posters in that forum are under the delusion that evolution books have been published by the thousand since 1980. In fact, you should probably write a letter to Amazon.com, since they too are operating under that delusion.

wow... how did I get off into that? but my point that I was making is that it seems that most atheists, or agnostics just dont want there to be a supernatural reason for there existence.

What? You think we wouldn't want to live forever?

You know....let's look at your post. For someone who claims not to be a fundy, you sure have lot of typically fundy thoughts, like the catch-phrase "random chance," the idea that probability makes evolution impossible, that atheists and agnostics hate the idea of the supernatural, that belief in god is difficult (if it is difficult, why do 85% of Americans, whom you claim don't like to think, believe in god?), and other fundy-isms.

Michael

Stabby-

Hi Down.

Sorry you are so confused.

I can see how your feelings can make skepticism and agnostism difficult to understand. I can think of no simple answer to your question, that would be of any use to you.

If you are really serious, and sincere, you'll have to do the following.
Study Evolution to the point where you can summarize it and have a proper biologist agree with your summary. Prove that you understand evolution. This doesn't mean you'll have to agree with it. It will be a real test of your empathetic, scientific and mathematicial skills.

Notions of god, responsibility, healthy psychology and spirituality can wait.

good luck and have fun.
Stabby-----

Downsindrone

Hey there Turt...
Heres what the dictionary say determinism means

determinism \De*ter"min*ism\, n. (Metaph.) The doctrine that the will is not free, but is inevitably and invincibly determined by motives.

determined by motives?
FOr there to be motives, there must have been a motivator.
Oh and to be honest, you dont look too intelligent by insulting me. I'm sure you think i'm a snob and stuff, but I'm just a person like anyone else of course. No better than you or anyone. I guess my school broke the law and still continues to break the law cuz the power team still tours across america...
Thousands of evolution books at amazon?
Did you stupidly just do a search for "evolution" at Amazon? For every book that supports it, theres one to go aganst it, and oh yes by the way, most books written about the subject in the last two decades are indeed critical of it, not full fledging supporters of it.
Hey! heres a nice ~fundie catch phrase~ for you!
Of those 85% people that said they believe in God how many do you think meant it? Having a God bless america sticker on your minivan dosent make you a believer.
Believing in God goes far beyond living forever...
It goes more hand in hand with what you do while you are actually alive.
Good night...

Panta Pei

Your SecWeb name aside, I will try to treat most of your inquiries as sincere ;0)

I cannot speak for others in the “general population” here, as some of them include Christians. However, as a non-religious human being I can answer your less disingenuous questions as enumerated from my personal experience.

“1. What are your motivations for being a "freethinker?”

Honesty, simplicity and moral integrity.

“2.Were you raised this way or did you come to this conclusion later on in life?”

I was raised as a Roman Catholic replete with ingrained ritual and dogma. I came to a more rational view after much reading, observation and testing.

“3. Do you find this lifestyle emotionaly sastisfying?”

Absolutely. I am a happily married, father of three wonderful children (7rs, 5rs and ten months) and protect and serve my community as a violent crimes detective (which means I deal with all felonies except narcotics investigations. I am specially trained in forensics and homicide investigations)

The rest of your comments I found to be wily and deceitful in an open attempt to mischaracterize the topic of realism versus supernaturalism via the strawman argument. Which, by the way, is the method of all of the ‘fundies’ I have ever met.

Since you are obviously not above lying to proselytize your brand of religion, you meet all the criteria for being fundamentally a Christian.

Though you state you do not go to church, you then claim “Me personally I believe that God takes an active part in my life. And that the bible provides me with guidance and direction.” Which interpretation of “God” and biblical guidance/direction allows you to state in this forum that you are not a Christian?

As for John Jacobs and the Power Team, let me just point out their stated mission:

“Why They Do What They Do
The Power Team has been performing school assemblies for 18 years and is ranked as one of the top school assemblies in the nation. They bring a message of hope to kids from Elementary School to High School. The Power Team tackles the tough issues of drugs and alcohol, teenage pregnancy, suicide, and the importance of high academic standards. Young people all over the world have been changed by their message. Their evening Gospel Crusades have drawn thousands of people to make a life-changing decision of commitment to Jesus Christ. Hundreds of families have experienced renewal as they have made this life-changing decision together!”

While all of the topics are extremely important, the underlying methodology is once again dishonest as it becomes very apparent that they are just one of many groups that use false mental manipulation to acquire converts. Any other group attempting this nonsense without tossing in “Christ” would be labeled a dangerous cult luring troubled youth with false and empty promises.

There are perfectly fine secular agencies to assist in these matters for those families unable to cope with the stated issues. Supernaturalism by its very nature is no way to deal with real problems.

As an aside, please tell me what your position is regarding Jacobs’ divorce of his wife of 16 years, Ruthanne?

May I also have your opinion of Jacobs’ assault case against fellow “team” member Jeffrey Audas when Audas commented to other employees that he didn't think Jacobs' lifestyle "reflected the person he tried to project himself as on TV and in public."

Good night to you and it is my fervent hope that you find peace and hope through clarity.

Jane Bovary

Thousands of evolution books at amazon?
Did you stupidly just do a search for "evolution" at Amazon? For every book that supports it, theres one to go aganst it, and oh yes by the way, most books written about the subject in the last two decades are indeed critical of it, not full fledging supporters of it.


Downsindrome, the simple truth is that the vast bulk of credible scientific weight supports the theory of evolution over creation. I hope your not trying to claim it is the other way around? Because if you are, you are doomed to failure.

Even if there were "more books" around denying, rather than supporting, the theory of evolution, [and I find that incredible]...it proves little.
It's quality, not quantity.

Sheesh...I'm sure there's even some loopy books around saying the earth is flat or Elvis is alive and well and living in a fish tank. So what?

kwigibo

i never thought i'd hear someone seriously use the tornado/junkyard/747 argument again. I would make the classic stretched DC-10 counter-analogy but do u really think it's worth it?

Jane Bovary

No....! *LOL*