Brian63

Greetings Breeze!

It is always pleasant to see a Christian venture into our neck of the cyber-woods in a very polite and calm manner, as you have done. It is not uncommon that we get more preachy and virulent Christians coming our way. As atheists, we have our own fair share of jerks too (even some of the responses that you received earlier in the thread were way too harsh, I believe), but we also have our fair share of civil and pleasant people as well. I hope that you stick around for a while and do not let the bad apples spoil the whole bunch for you.

You ask some good questions:



I guess that I simply cease to exist, whatever that means. Actually, this is an issue that I have been struggling with as of late. How can an atheist deal with personal loss and hardship, believing that it is merely the result of bad luck and that no greater power will come to their rescue? The only answer that I have been able to come to is that it is simply harder for an atheist than a theist to deal with trauma. It's not the easiest way to live, but it's not really an option for those of us who can't force ourselves to believe in a god.



I think you are right about this too. Without God, we are left to our own selves to come up with meanings for our lives. That is not as depressing as it may initially seem though. I see it as more an affirmation of the individual and their own "specialness." How you decide to live is ultimately a reflection of yourself and your own individuality.

Keep in mind though, that even if I did believe God existed, and that God had given me a purpose for living, I would not necessarily accept that purpose. I may indeed reject the purpose that God handed to me and instead live with my own instead, if I find it preferable. A lot of Christians that I have encountered (but not all) seem to believe that by merely "proving" his existence to me that I will automatically bow down and worship Him. Not so. I would need to believe that such a creature is even worthy of worship before I did any such thing.



In America, where most of us are living, Christianity is the dominant religion and thus you will see most of our discussions centering around it.



I differ with many of my atheist colleagues in that I do not see Christianity in particular or religion in general as evil or harmful. Actually, we'd need to be more specific (Christianity is a vast religion covering a multitude of varying beliefs). I am passionately opposed to more conservative and fundamentalist versions of Christianity, but am very welcoming to more liberal versions of it. Actually, I am somewhat pro-religion in many ways, but only for the more liberal versions of religious beliefs.

Thank you for your questions. Many Christians have come before you and asked similar ones, but these topics I think are among the most important and enjoyable to read, and it's good that they pop up on occassion.

Brian

Kip

Welcome BreezeinaTree:

Let me begin by saying that your questions imply (although you do not explicitly state) an argument from adverse consequences. This is an argument of the form "If X were true, X would be bad, THEREFORE X is not true". That would be the implication of mentioning that atheists have no afterlife or life meaning. The problem is that arguments from adverse consequences are fallacies. So, whether or not X is desirable does not affect the likelihood that X is true.

Now allow me to answer your questions:

Absolutely nothing. I think this conclusion is necessary if you realize that the mind or "soul" is not a unified whole, but composite. Personal identity is not static, personalities change, people grow insane, more or less happy or intelligent, and develop different opinions. The embarrassing question is "what happens to these former selves?" or "which person goes to Heaven?" If you die when you are 90 and senile, does God take you to Heaven, are you 90 and senile? If not, who are you? Also remember that, although people generally agree that you do not exist before you are born, the idea of an afterlife is very popular, and there is a strong motivation to invent that idea.

So you suspect that atheist "protest too much"? Perhaps we do. Your question of "why do you spend so much time trying to deny or reject God" is misleading, though. That is similar to saying "why do you spend so much time trying to deny or reject Santa Claus?" Atheists are not conspiring to kill God, God has been dead for a long time. Any History of Philosophy book can confirm that much. The religions of the world are vestiges of another era.

Christianity is the most targeted for the simple fact that Christianity is the most popular. The religion is not a threat to our beliefs, with which most atheists feel quite secure, but a threat to people's lives and minds. Catholic priests molest little boys, fanatical Christians assassinate abortion doctors, Christians oppose scientific research that could potentially help paralyzed and chronically ill people, Christians oppose the separation of Church and state and civil liberties, etc.

Probably more sober, productive, scientific, tolerant, and free. I am hesitant to say better, because I think that many people would be quite sad without some imaginary God. I would prefer that world though.

Sure, I love discussing religion.

Scrambles

Why is God necessary for life to have a higher "meaning"? (significance maybe a better word?).

Another question one might ask is what "higher force" assigns "meaning" to God if God assigns "meaning" to us?

If you say WE supply "meaning" to God then effectively we have a circle:
God --meaning--> us --meaning-->God,
==> God --> God

If you say that God supplies meaning to himself (itself), then why can't we supply meaning to ourselves? What, you say because God is infinite and unbounded that he can do this and we can't? Well I fail to see how being infinite and unbounded has anything to do with "meaning".


Scrambles

Vorkosigan

I am posting for the first time to this forum, and am a newcomer, so I apologize in advance if I am repeating a topic.

Don't worry about it. You aren't the first, and won't be the last.

Let me introduce myself. I am a Christian.

Basic problem. You don't introduce yourself, but your religion. Where is your sense of self?

I have found Christianity to be a faith that is intellectually satisfying.

Most of us here prefer complex explanations that relate to reality, rather than fairy tales that claim "godidit."

1. What do you think happens to you after your death?

The world goes on like it always does.

2. To me, atheism ultimately implies that there is no greater meaning to life. Yes, you can give your life some meaning by contributing to society, having children, etc. But ultimately, there is no higher force to create meaning.

Correct. All meaning is a human thing.

This gets back to question 1 above, but in the atheist view as I understand it, personal meaning ends upon your death.

You mean like for Plato? Newton? Darwin? Michaelangelo? Beethoven?....most of us still find great pleasure interacting with humans who have lived in the past. Their meaning travels on...

of meaning. So, why do atheists try so hard to deny or reject God? Seems to me that people would rather try to prove God exists. Forget about organized religion, why not try to prove that there is a God?

Because you can't, and there aren't any gods.

We don't "try so hard" to reject god. Indeed, it is not difficult. Simply consider the utter lack of reliable and credible evidence for gods, and go from there. Not much effort is required.

3. Among religions, Christianity is most often targeted by atheists. Do atheists really see Christianity as a threat? Why?

In the US, atheists often focus on Christianity. In other countries atheists are not confronted by a militant fundamentalist religion, so they don't target any. In the US Christians suppress the rights of non-Christians, commit acts of violence against communities whose behavior they don't like, distort and rewrite history, marginalize non-Christians...the list goes on.

4. What do you think Western society would be like without its bent toward Christian beliefs? Would it be better or worse?

Much better.

Vorkosigan

free12thinker

1. After death, there is no consciousness or second wind, not in heavan, not anywhere. Eventaully your body rots away, and that's all.

2. We don't try and reject or deny god. We simply do not believe that such a god exists. A better question would be why do Christians try and believe in a god, especially with never having seen this god. How can you assume that we are trying to reject or deny god, when there isn't any evidence to gods existence. It's not like someone who looks at themselves after gaining 200 lbs and tries to deny they have a weight problem. The denial is real because there is evidence to the weight problem. That person would be in obvious denial. We are not. We simply have no reason to accept that which we cannot see or hear, or feel, or.....

3. Atheists don't "target" religions, though it may appear as though Christianity is the one we discuss more than others, probably because it in itself is the most controversial and misunderstood, what with its many forms and roots, even by Christians themselves.

4. This is a question that must be answered with an answer from you. Are you asking how we'd be if Christianity never existed, or if it simply dissapeared one day. If the latter was true, than those who hang their lives on Christianity would be in denial of themselves and their own purpose, some would committ or contemplate suicide and a lot of people would be lost. But this is all because they have been sucked into religion and all of its awesomeness. People are so dependent on the idea of a god and the blueprint of life that is the bible, they wouldn't klnow how to react if it were to dissapear.

But, if Christianity never appeared in the first place, we would be a more reasonable, thought rational, forgiving, open minded society.

pug846

BreezeinaTree said:

I assume my body will slowly decompose and I’ll no longer exist. Probably feel the same way for me as it did before I was born.

I “create” meaning for myself – My family, friends, work, etc. How exactly does God “create” meaning? Let’s says that your daughter or son creates meaning for your life. You work to make them happy and feel like you’ve accomplished something when you do contribute to their happiness, etc. If God came down from heaven and said your daughter shouldn’t create meaning for your life, wouldn’t you think that a bit odd? It’s like feeling like you have a headache and then God tells you that you actually don’t have a headache. It just wouldn’t make any sense – you still feel like you have a headache.

You need to be a lot more careful with your words. “Atheism” isn’t a very all-encompassing view. It simply means we lack belief in one more God than you do. Second, speaking for this atheist, I don’t try any harder to “deny” God’s existence than Santa Claus, Allah, Zeus or the invisible pink unicorn.

Simply a matter of geography. You probably know of atheists who live in predominantly Christian societies. If this country were predominantly Islamic, you would see something totally different.

I don’t see “Christianity” as some abstract concept as a threat, but certain people’s understanding of Christianity is quite dangerous. (Look no farther than Jerry Falwell.)

I have no clue what Western Society would be without Christianity – I don’t think anyone can honestly say what it would be like. I have no clue what you mean by “better or worse.”

sbaii

Welcome Bree!
I always find it interesting that the first thing believers worry about is death. Christianity is like a death cult.IMO Xians believe because they want immortality no matter what that means. And everyone has a different idea of what heaven is. But the laws of nature don't allow for immortality beyond the atomic level as far as we know. And I would have to believe too many contradictions in order to believe in Christianity.

For instance, why would an all-loving, all-merciful god create a place of eternal punishment? What could one person possibly do that would rate punishment that never ends? It doesn't make sense to me. Atheists are free-thinkers who question everything. Most religions don't like questions.

bonduca

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I guess I'm next in line, so here goes:


Assuming I don't die in some sensational way with skeletal remains found years later, etc., I will probably be taken to a funeral home and cremated. Beyond that, nothing. I don't believe in an afterlife. I feel I must try to make every moment count during the time that I have.

I feel that life itself has sufficient meaning.

I hardly think those things are trivial. In fact, I think those ARE the things that give life meaning. I think it would be a great wrong to neglect those things in pursuit of an imaginary deity.

I feel that a life lived with love, passion, dignity, and contributions to one's community is the highest goal one can aspire to.

Nobody likes to die, to cease to exist. Some people take comfort in believing that they or their loved ones continue to exist on some plane after death. Since I do not believe in a god, I could not believe such a thing without feeling I was allowing myself to take false comfort from lies.

I believe anyone who devotes themselves passionately and without fear to a cause that they feel is vital reaps a great benefit, simply by virtue of living that kind of life. Medals on earth are nice, but not necessary. Kudos in heaven are equally unimportant.

I am not sure what that question has to do with Martin Luther King. Perhaps I have missed something in the interpretation...

Most of us tried very hard to continue believing in a god. But when anyone begins to question, they cannot help but search for answers. I have yet to see proof of a god, or even see that such a being would be worthy of worship, if it DID exist.

See above. I personally spent quite a few years looking for god, and in the end, I found atheism.

In this part of the world, where Christianity is the dominant religion, that is hardly surprising.

I see certain types of people who call themselves Christians as threats to my freedom to believe as I wish without persecution. As for why - ask yourself why I must pledge allegiance to a god in order to show my loyalty to my country, for a good starting point. From there, read through some of the articles referenced in other parts of this website. That should give you an excellent overview.


What each individual believes is their own affair. I think our society as a whole would be better off without the urge to dominate one another through religious coercion. I certainly think the world would be a better place without televangelists taking money from people who can ill afford it. And we could all do without anymore speeches from Mr. Falwell.

Thank you for flying Air Infidels.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

Eudaimonist

1. What do you think happens to you after your death?

You cease to exist as a living, conscious being. Contrary to what some people imagine, this isn't an eternal blackness, since there is no "you" to be aware of anything -- even blackness.

2. To me, atheism ultimately implies that there is no greater meaning to life.

Life is great enough with worthwhile human purposes. It doesn't have to be suprahumanly great.

So, why do atheists try so hard to deny or reject God?

What makes you think effort is required to not believe in God? Does it take effort for you not to believe in Zeus?

If you mean the compilation of atheist arguments, as one might find at this website, we like to understand how our views are rational and philosophically defensible. Christians have sought philosophical justifications and defenses for their beliefs for thousands of years, so you should not find this surprising.

Seems to me that people would rather try to prove God exists. Forget about organized religion, why not try to prove that there is a God?

You are assuming that life without divine meaning is incomplete. This is not my personal experience.

3. Among religions, Christianity is most often targeted by atheists. Do atheists really see Christianity as a threat? Why?

Why do Christians see atheists as a threat? If Christians would stop targetting atheists, accusing atheists of being inherently immoral, then atheists would probably mellow out regarding Christians.

4. What do you think Western society would be like without its bent toward Christian beliefs? Would it be better or worse?

That depends on what sort of philosophical values replaced Christianity. Could turn out better. Could turn out worse.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

WWSD

Originally posted by BreezeinaTree:

1. What do you think happens to you after your death?

Nothing. I will be cremated and my bones will be ground up into a fine dust.


2. To me, atheism ultimately implies that there is no greater meaning to life.

Quite right, there isn't. But it doesn't bother me one bit.

But ultimately, there is no higher force to create meaning. This gets back to question 1 above, but in the atheist view as I understand it, personal meaning ends upon your death. Martin Luther King Jr. did some great things in his life, but he does not reap the benefit himself because he was martyred for his pursuit of meaning.

All of humans great accomplishments over the ages are irrelevant in the great meaningless scheme of the universe. One day we will be extinct and the universe will trundle along without us. Quite a satisfying thought actually.


So, why do atheists try so hard to deny or reject God?

I don't try hard to reject or deny any god. I don't believe in god just as easily as I don't believe in fairies. Its not hard to do.

If you are referring to why some people argue about it, there are various reasons why atheists/agnostics/etc would spend time debating existence questions.


Seems to me that people would rather try to prove God exists. Forget about organized religion, why not try to prove that there is a God?

Why? Why does a god need to exist in order to validate my existence? I see no need for it.


3. Among religions, Christianity is most often targeted by atheists. Do atheists really see Christianity as a threat? Why?

We live in a society dominated by christians, many of us are former christians. I see it as a threat to the freedom of science to move forward.


4. What do you think Western society would be like without its bent toward Christian beliefs? Would it be better or worse?


It certainly would lack people like creationists and thier agendas.
I would be less agitated by the complete lunacy of some of the more bombastic christians.
Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell would not exist as they do today.
Benny Hinn and his ilk wouldn't be duping people out of thier money.
I wouldn't have to worry about people's reactions to my being an atheist.
And the list could probably go on and on.