Freethought & Rationalism Archive

happyboy · 03-23-2003, 01:31 PM

the next time they bring up "God" curing cancer, ask them why their God cures people on a whim, and let's 99% of terminal cancer patients die slow, horrible deaths.

happyboy, who has 1st-hand experience with cancer

theIPU · 03-23-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walross
Your friends are jumping to conclusions. "unexplained" does not equal "godidit". Just because something unexplained and unexpected occured, how can they justify coming to the conclusion that god was responsible? Maybe it was super advanced aliens, or leprechauns, or satan. Or maybe there was just a perfectly natural reason that hasn't been found. The bottom line is that asserting an unknown natural cause for these "miracles" doesn't require you to invent an entire "supernatural" realm with ill-defined parameters, and entities of dubious logical merit. Asserting god as the cause does require them to. Good luck,

Walross

:notworthy

Quote:

Originally posted by happyboy

the next time they bring up "God" curing cancer, ask them why their God cures people on a whim, and let's 99% of terminal cancer patients die slow, horrible deaths.

happyboy, who has 1st-hand experience with cancer

Their answer would be, "well, those people probably did something that God wants to punish them for." sigh

:boohoo:

theIPU · 03-23-2003, 03:12 PM

My religion teacher was talking about hell with the class and he said that, "hell is seperation from God." I asked him how someone could be seperated from an omnipresent God. He said I was putting "human limitations" on God and that "God is beyond logic." I had no idea had to respond to this because whenever I evaluate something I use logic. Any help from the pros?

Fiach · 03-23-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
Okay, at my school some theists have been questioning my atheism (which is fine by me) but they use some arguments that are hard to respond to (at least for me).

I find that hillarious. Fundies ask me to prove I am an Atheist. What? Prove that I don't believe in something. What the feck do I do, take a polygram test? Why would I lie about not believing in God. I can understand Atheists lying about it by denying atheism and espousing God belief to keep their jobs or avoid a boycott of their small town business by intolerant fundies.

Some of the arguments for God existing is

MIRACLES- "My dad is a doctor and he had a patient who was about to die from a terrible disease, and all of a sudden, HE WAS HEALED!!! If God didn't, who saved him?

First it is an anectdotal story, not a scientifically documented account. Was the diagnosis correct? The Doctor who claimed he was healed by God is not a doctor one should go to. He is either stupid or has little knowledge of disease processes. I am a physician. I have seen numerous people who fail standard therapy but their own body's immune system belatedly kicks in, identifies a protein marker on a cancer cell and attacks it. Every once in a while the body is able to successfully fight the disease. Many occur in unbelievers, patients who were not prayed for, and there is no evidence of Divine Magic. You cannot postulate magic if it is known that natural history of most diseases is that some recover no matter what. Many recover despite an incompetent doctor, because evolution has placed all sorts of disease fighting systems in us. We have a complex immune system, antibody medicated, cell mediated, complex changes in lymphocytes from T4 to T8 from identification agents into actual attack cells with something called "TNF" (tumour necrosis factor), agents that enhance or inhibit immune mechanisms such as interferons, co-factors, interleukins, leucokinins, histamines and their interactions are very complex indeed. Like any natural biological function, it varies in effectiveness. Sometimes this complex system corrects its own "strategy" in fighting a disease and the patient then recovers. It is not MAGIC, it is biology. People who can process only simplistic explanations will not like this. But reality is complex not simple.

"What about people who hearts stop and then suddenly come back to life! Doctors can't explain that, so God did it. If you say God didn't do it, who did then?"

Cardiac arrhythmias are of several types lumped as cardiac arrest. I have extensive experience in resuscitations in our hospital. Many "codes" are called by the nurses and before we can begin resuscitation the heart goes back into natural sinus rhythm. Many are paroxysmal arrhythmias, that naturally resolve after a period of time. Please do not say that "Doctors" can't explain this. Only poorly trained and poorly educated doctors can't explain this. Some doctors may be too tired to explain the complexity of the Bundle of Hiss or 2nd, 3rd, or Complete heart block to people obviously not literate enough to understand so they brush them off with "I can't explain it." They mean "I am not going to waste my time explaining something you can't understand."

I simply point out to them that they aren't giving all the circumstances included in these so-called "miracles" and that I am not qualified to make a medical statement on these matters.

That is a rational approach.

This doesn't convince them and saying I'm not qualified just gives them reason to say "Atheists can't explain it, only God can!" I say they are just using God as an excuse for their ignorance. Can anyone tell me how to respond to these God arguments?

My approach is keeping in mind that the family has been stressed by a loved one barely escaping death. I tell them that the "body is a complex mechanism with many different defence mechanisms and healing capacities that are complex enough that they must be studied over 4 years of medical school to understand. Naturally I can not give a course in immunology in 10 minutes that would make sense to you. Just be relieved that Uncle Rob is iimproving. Be thankful to your God if you prefer. I find that the body itself can do these self-repairs. The Christian believes that God designed the human body, and therefore you can say that the body healed itself, with a complex mechanism which you believe God created." Or some variance of that.

Fiach

sourdough · 03-23-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
Some of the arguments for God existing is
MIRACLES- "My dad is a doctor and he had a patient who was about to die from a terrible disease, and all of a sudden, HE WAS HEALED!!! If God didn't, who saved him?

maybe you could ask them who heals THEM when they get sick,(with a flu for example),if they believe that God can heal why take any medication,
heck,why go to the dentist when you get a toothache,just get on your knees and pray to God to heal you!
see how far it will get you.

Fiach · 03-23-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sourdough
maybe you could ask them who heals THEM when they get sick,(with a flu for example),if they believe that God can heal why take any medication,
heck,why go to the dentist when you get a toothache,just get on your knees and pray to God to heal you!
see how far it will get you.

Taking the argument a further step back, one might ask why God gave/invented cancer in the first place? Why did god invent infectious baceria and viruses? Why does God make brain tumours grow in babies and children? And for information sake, I had to help many familty dealing with a dying child with an inoperable brain tumour who took years to die, while suffering headaches, vomiting, partial or complete blindness, partial or complete paralysis. Parents sometimes prayed all day long, pastors came in and prayed, and the child's suffering continued until his/her brain herniated and respirations ceased.

When some irresponsible doctor attributes a person's recovery from pneumonia or congestive heart failure as a "miracle" it infuriates me. I would like to grab him by the fecking nose over to the dying child and say, "Oi, God believing physician, explain your bollocks to that child's family."

Fiach

BioBeing · 03-23-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Some of the arguments for God existing is

MIRACLES- "My dad is a doctor and he had a patient who was about to die from a terrible disease, and all of a sudden, HE WAS HEALED!!! If God didn't, who saved him?

I agree this is purely anecdotal - but I would ask the kid if his father (the Doctor) actually truly believed that the healing was through God (even ask the father yourself if you go to this kids house!). The kid may have overheard his father saying (joking, even) "he just got cured - dunno why. Maybe God..." Kid then converts this to "God did it" (because of course, his father couldn't be wrong, not know something etc...). To have the trained medical professional admit that the only possible explanation is God would be pretty rare, in my experience (but would of course, still not be proof that God did, in fact, do it).

Javaman · 03-24-2003, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fiach
Taking the argument a further step back, one might ask why God gave/invented cancer in the first place? Why did god invent infectious baceria and viruses? Why does God make brain tumours grow in babies and children?

...

Fiach

Plus, here's a good list by August Berkshire from the Atheist Alliance Web Center.

Valmorian · 03-24-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
[B]Okay, at my school some theists have been questioning my atheism (which is fine by me) but they use some arguments that are hard to respond to (at least for me).

Some of the arguments for God existing is

MIRACLES- "My dad is a doctor and he had a patient who was about to die from a terrible disease, and all of a sudden, HE WAS HEALED!!! If God didn't, who saved him?

"What about people who hearts stop and then suddenly come back to life! Doctors can't explain that, so God did it. If you say God didn't do it, who did then?"

These are examples of a logical fallacy known as the Argument from Ignorance. You appear to be aware of this, but they seem to be unable to understand that 'lack of understanding' is not equal to 'God did it'.

You COULD point out that at one point people believed all sorts of goofy things because they couldn't explain events, but I doubt they would understand.

Sounds like they need some lessons in critical thinking.

Alludium Fozdex · 03-24-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
Okay, at my school some theists have been questioning my atheism (which is fine by me) but they use some arguments that are hard to respond to (at least for me).

Back in my high school days, I used to enjoy using the Argument from Victory in Single Combat.

I'd tell a particularly bellicose fundy that, if he could defeat me in single combat, I'd accept that his deity intervened to help him secure victory.

Oddly enough, no one would rise to the bait.

I have discovered one interesting phenomenon, though: talk smack about Gawd and Jebus, and you usually get nothing but blank stares; talk smack about Mom, and you usually get a response.

03-23-2003, 03:12 PM	#13
theIPU Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 65	My religion teacher says... My religion teacher was talking about hell with the class and he said that, "hell is seperation from God." I asked him how someone could be seperated from an omnipresent God. He said I was putting "human limitations" on God and that "God is beyond logic." I had no idea had to respond to this because whenever I evaluate something I use logic. Any help from the pros?

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03-23-2003, 01:31 PM	#11
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	the next time they bring up "God" curing cancer, ask them why their God cures people on a whim, and let's 99% of terminal cancer patients die slow, horrible deaths. happyboy, who has 1st-hand experience with cancer

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