Geoff Hudson

Butters,

Actually Jonah was in the "belly" of the ship (the cargo hold) for three days and three nights, where he was swamped with waves and buffeted by cargo and seaweed sloshing around. I don't think he was swallowed by a fish.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson

“PROPHECIES” ABOUT THE DEATHS OF “PETER” AND JOHN IN JOSEPHUS
The so-called ‘minor’ fulfilments of prophecies in the OT were of course real events in their original contexts. They were used with hindsight by later writers to create the impression of prophetic ‘major’ fulfilments. The editors of the NT also used Josephus’ writings in a similar manner (not necessarily as prophecies), showing that their work was post Josephus. These ‘prophecies’ are to be distinguished from the prophecies which the original writers of the NT referred to (such as the prophecy in Joel about God pouring out his Spirit on everyone).

One ‘minor fulfilment’ is in War 7.5.6. We read in War 7.2.1, that towards the end of the war, a general of the Jewish nationalist fighters, Simon bar Gioras was trapped underground trying to tunnel his way to freedom. But because the mining works became too difficult, he was forced to surrender to the Romans. Then in War 7.5.3, we read that he was taken to Rome with John of Gischala and 700 other captives. There he and the other captives were dressed-up to hide their emaciation from the sight of the crowds, for the triumphal procession (War 7.5.5). He was drawn along by a rope around his head, and finally executed as the climax to the pageant (War 7.5.6).

The ‘major fulfilment’ is in John 21:18 and 19: Jesus said (to the disciple Peter), ‘Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.’ Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.

The words put into Jesus’ mouth are meant to foreshadow Peter’s (alias Simon’s) death and clearly echo the events prior to the death of Simon bar Gioras described in Josephus.

A second ‘minor fulfilment’ is in War 6.9.4. Here we read that the other nationalist leader John of Gischala surrendered voluntarily to the Romans. He was allowed to live but given life imprisonment.

The second ‘major fulfilment’ follows that concerned with Peter in John 21.22: Jesus answered (speaking to Simon/Peter), ‘If I want him (referring to the disciple John) to remain alive until I return what is that to you?’

It is further possible that the account of John of Gischala’s life imprisonment in Josephus was also the origin of the tradition that John son of Zebedee died of extreme old age (whereas there is good cause to think John the son of Zebedee was put to death near to the time his brother James was executed).

The parallels are obvious. The editor of the NT was using these accounts in Josephus to create mythical stories surrounding the deaths of Simon/Peter and John the son of Zebedee. The name Simon applied to Peter may have come from the name Simon bar Gioras.

It is my view that Peter like Jesus was fictitious. Just as many events ascribed to Jesus in the NT are about John the Prophet, so many of the events ascribed to Peter are about James the son of Zebedee. If there was a conversation at all in John 21.18, then John the Prophet (not Jesus) was speaking to James the son of Zebedee, his prospective successor, and brother to John the son of Zebedee.

Geoff

WRW Mattfeld

Regarding Biblical support, the New Testament is full of claims that Christ is fulfilling prophecies made by OT prophets. So the notion that OT prophecies were NOT just for the ancient audience, but also for future ages appears to a an Early Christian notion. I have argued that the oT texts suggest that the prophecies were intended to be fulfilled in the lifetimes of the audience hearing them, NOT hundreds of years later. The Early Christians are using a concept called "Allegory" believed to have been dveloped by the Greeks. Cf. thew following urls for more info-

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/OTPropheciesFlawedMethodologies.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/OTPropheciesFlawedMethodologies.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/Presuppositions.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/Presuppositions.html</a>

All the best, Walter

l-bow

Robert Price, in one of his essays, talks about this double fulfillment. The method of biblical interpretation is called "pesher".


<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/psychics.html" target="_blank">link </a>

Butters

posted by Geoff,
Hmm, While I respect what you THINK, by bible clearly says Jonah was thrown overboard, and was swallowed by a fish. He was later regurgutated by said fish. Jesus said "As Jonah was in the belly of the fish...
So I will have to disregard your statement, and go with what the Bible says.