Rhea

How did we jump from schools making kids say pledges to churches doing it? I'm diffused.

What I'm talking about is PUBLIC SCHOOLS which have mandatory attendence reciting a pledge that says UNDER GOD. (And telling six year old children that they have the option of standing in the hall if they don't want to participate)

It just doesn't make sense in a religiously nuetral country. It makes perfect sense for McCarthy-Era bullying.

Muffinstuffer

Uh.....oops. We jumped because I thought 'school' and typed 'church.' Sorry!! Heh heh. Where's the embarrassed smiley?

Where did you get this from? Does this really happen? Even when I was a kid in the 80's, we had the option of NOT saying the pledge.

Rhea

Yes it happens. That what I was telling you about my entire school district. And the one next to us and the one next to that.

Our town board meetings start with the pledge. The planning board starts with the pledge. Yes it is noticed if you say the pledge in its original form. Yes it is noticed when you "skip the words."

It forces all non-believers to choose between being a liar and a radical activist. It makes every potential candidate to town office necessarily state their religious views publicly. It makes every first grader do the same.

That is an inappropriate choice for an adult, it is IMMORAL to place that choice upon a six year old child, in my opinion.



(and - hauling things back to the topic - it makes the well of civility run dry that much sooner, doesn't it. Now your "one-time witness" is falling on the heels of a lifetime of being forced to choose between being a liar and a radical. If only Christian wintessers would remember the context of their witnessing!)

Rational BAC

I hate to kick a dead horse but------------

As stated before --you also have the option to say the Pledge any damned way you please. You do not have to leave the room at all. Trust me. Nobody will notice at all what you say.

Nobody ever noticed that I left out "under God" Nobody ever noticed that I replaced "indivisible" with "divisible"

Hey. A pledge is a pledge --a type of oath. And you should always say an oath truthfully (at least to yourself truthfully).

Going a little farther on this----------There was a time in my life that I deleted the "to the flag" part. --------because I thought it was superfluous and kind of silly. There was also a time in my life that I said --at the end-- "with liberty, justice and EQUALITY" for all. -----------since that was in the original (the guy who wrote the pledge was a socialist you know).

But so many changes made my saying of the pledge noticeably different than the way others were saying it ---------and I figured I was being just a bit picayune about the whole thing anyway, and those later changes were not all that important to me. So I stopped doing MAJOR , noticeable changes to the Pledge.

And I am a happy little dude.

Say again------big to-do about nothing at all. Say the Pledge any damned way you please. Nobody will notice at all.
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PS---------I suppose, if you wanted to be absolutely correct to the original Pledge, then you would have to give the Nazi salute while doing it----------because that was the way it was done until the 2nd World War made that politically incorrect.

Muffinstuffer

And if they say anything about it, stick your thumbs in your ears and wiggle your fingers at them. I find this helps when I'm debating with people and I don't have answers.

Rhea

Why do you persist in ignoring personal accounts of this being ABOSULTELY NOT TRUE?

You have glossed over several, you say they won't notice. I say that is absolutely NOT TRUE.

How can I get it across to you that it is NOT my experience? My experience is REAL and FACTUAL. It is absolutely noticed. It is absolutely NOTokay for a six-year-old to say anything she pleases and not be noticed. It's just NOT TRUE.


Hello??? Do you hear me at all?

Rhea

Whoops. There goes my civility.
(Thanks for illustrating the answer to the OP's question)

Rational BAC

Hear you Rhea-------

But I do restate that I have been saying the Pledge for almost 50 years now leaving out "Under God" and for probably the last 30 years replacing "indivisible" with "divisible"------------and NOBODY AT ALL HAS NOTICED.

Do you hear me Rhea?
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Of course I hope you realize from a practical standpoint, it is very early in the morning, most kids are half asleep with eyes pretty much glazed over while saying the Pledge. And nobody is really paying a hell of a lot of attention to very minor (at least as far as what anyone can hear) changes in the Pledge.

All I can say is it worked for me. Still does.

livius drusus

Just because nobody has noticed your modifications in the past doesn't mean nobody notices Rhea's today. The post-9/11 impetus to force Pledge recitals in public schools and in local, regional, and national governments is not about mumbled repetition just pro-forma. What had become an infrequent and rote gesture once McCarthy went his merry way has now reverted to a widespread and insidious test of patrotism. Very much included in this test is the embrace of the judeo-xian god and his purported involvement in the manifest destiny of these here United States. Denying that can and does generate suspicion of traitorous intent.

Consider yourself lucky you haven't experienced this suspicion, but don't deceive yourself and insult the people who have by denying its existence.

Muffinstuffer

I hear both of you, but this basically comes down to 'experience' and it so happens that Rhea's experiences are not yours, RBAC. Not to be rude, but just as you are not lying, neither is she.