Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Illusion Dweller · 10-21-2002, 07:37 PM

It is the constant attention of christians to convert others to their way of thinking. Usually this is a selfish-reprieve.. they think that by 'saving' someone else, they've lived a better life, and earned themselves a higher place in the kingdom of whatever heaven. Not to mention it's highly beneficial for others to carry your moral set.

More increasingly, as with this site, I see evolutionists trying desperately to initiate the /ignorant/ into our usually consistent views of how the universe works, or at least where we came from.

But didn't religion evolve for a reason? the need for order before there were police and videocameras, and an explanation for that thing hanging in the sky after it rains. Believing that there really is good cause for an unselfish altruistic act(unselfish until afterlife is concerned), obviously must have been good for the conscious species, past kin-selection.

The question I ask is,
Would the world be a better place if there were no more religion?

My opinion is yes, at first. Then the world would quickly descend to something out of science fiction. soylent green, gattaca, and logan's run come quickly to mind.

But it could go direct the other way too, if every person could be given 6 acres and a mule, and not allowed to have more than 2 children.

How about some of yins professional biological-economist types tell me what yall think.

Doubting Didymus · 10-21-2002, 08:08 PM

What are you talking about? I think you need to be more explicit about how your question relates to evolution.

Late_Cretaceous · 10-21-2002, 08:14 PM

I am not an athiest, but I don't see how believing in God makes life seem any more valuable or worthwhile. In fact, I recognize that it can be quite the opposite. For someone to outright reject the possiblitiy of God and an afterlife, they may tend to see life as being more precious due to it's ephemeral nature. You exist one minute, then are gone the next - so you better make it worth living (and that includes making other people's lives worthwhile too). Many many religous people, and religions, have clearly stated that life is all about suffering and that if you are suffering, well you have the chance to go to a better place - or maybe you just deserve it. A born again christian once told me that the Ethiopians deserved to starve and that it was God's punishment for them for being communist, and therefore we should not send them aid. How charitable is that? He certainly was not interested in making the world a better place, or making thier lives more worthwhile.

Life's meaning is only what we incorporate into it. I cannot imagine an existance where meaning is imposed, but only if you toe the line. I think the world would be far better off without it.

NOw,as far as science (and specifically evolutionary theory) goes - well it just does not address the concept of life's meaning. Therefor the debate is mute. Your question about do we need religion could find a better home in one of the other forums on this board.

Aethari · 10-21-2002, 08:15 PM

Well, ID, that question really seems to dpend on what exactly you mean. I think that if you're asking "if, overnight, all religion, religious imagery, and religious thought disappeared, would the world be better?", the answer should be a pretty clear no. So much of many societies are built, sometimes foundationally, on religion. To simply 'poof' religion away would leave a dispairing world sunk in chaos.

If we are talking about a society that has gradually evolved to a point without religion, and created secular replacements for what religion 'does' for people now, I don't really have an answer. I don't think we can do any reasonable analysis of 'benefit/harm results' between some unknown secular replacement and religion. Sure, we can be optimistic, and hope a secular replacement could do all the good things religion does, while avoid all the bad. But this isn't certain, and seems to tread somewhat idealistically. Even if this replacement avoided all the problems of religion, it would surely entail its own unique difficulties, and we are in no position to judge the results.

On a different note, if we're speaking from a philosophical, almost Platonic sense, then if religion is a false ideology, and we dispose of it, then society is better off because we are closer to the truth. However, I sensed you were talking more about pragmatic social ramifications.

-Aethari

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aethari ]</p>

Nataraja · 10-21-2002, 08:32 PM

Religion has it's place, it's just gotten rather screwed up in the past few centuries, particularly the Christians. Fortunately, there is now a movement among them taking Christianity in a less intrusive direction. The Muslims are getting a bit hardcore, lately, which may be a problem in the future

.

Nataraja · 10-21-2002, 08:34 PM

I'm a dreamer, I dream, yesssssssssss, I dream, and perhaps my vision for the world may seem a little twisted to some...

Illusion Dweller · 10-22-2002, 08:17 AM

Sorry for being vague.

I wasn't suggesting "what if religion was abolished tomorrow?" Rather, it seems the trend that more and more wise people are /converting/ to atheism. Less have the need to feel special or separate as far as the rest of biology & science are concerned.

Eventually, the devout will be a minority, do some radical on-the-brink-of-apocalypse stuff, then disappear.

I wondered if man, vision un-clouded, would find a tamer role on earth, with eachother & in the eco-system.

Dawkins talked about memes, but he never said anything about their value, or truth. Is the religion riding on our species backs a help or a hindrance?

Wyz_sub10 · 10-22-2002, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Illusion Dweller:
<strong>It is the constant attention of christians to convert others to their way of thinking. Usually this is a selfish-reprieve.. they think that by 'saving' someone else, they've lived a better life, and earned themselves a higher place in the kingdom of whatever heaven. Not to mention it's highly beneficial for others to carry your moral set.

More increasingly, as with this site, I see evolutionists trying desperately to initiate the /ignorant/ into our usually consistent views of how the universe works, or at least where we came from.

But didn't religion evolve for a reason? the need for order before there were police and videocameras, and an explanation for that thing hanging in the sky after it rains. Believing that there really is good cause for an unselfish altruistic act(unselfish until afterlife is concerned), obviously must have been good for the conscious species, past kin-selection.

The question I ask is,
Would the world be a better place if there were no more religion?

My opinion is yes, at first. Then the world would quickly descend to something out of science fiction. soylent green, gattaca, and logan's run come quickly to mind.

But it could go direct the other way too, if every person could be given 6 acres and a mule, and not allowed to have more than 2 children.

How about some of yins professional biological-economist types tell me what yall think.</strong>

Boyer's "Religion Explained" provides an interesting look at religion as it relates to the brain.

Secular Pinoy · 10-22-2002, 08:58 AM

I second Wyz's suggestion. Religion Explained is well-written and very informative.

10-21-2002, 07:37 PM	#1
Illusion Dweller Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Erie PA Posts: 46	The "meaning" of Life It is the constant attention of christians to convert others to their way of thinking. Usually this is a selfish-reprieve.. they think that by 'saving' someone else, they've lived a better life, and earned themselves a higher place in the kingdom of whatever heaven. Not to mention it's highly beneficial for others to carry your moral set. More increasingly, as with this site, I see evolutionists trying desperately to initiate the /ignorant/ into our usually consistent views of how the universe works, or at least where we came from. But didn't religion evolve for a reason? the need for order before there were police and videocameras, and an explanation for that thing hanging in the sky after it rains. Believing that there really is good cause for an unselfish altruistic act(unselfish until afterlife is concerned), obviously must have been good for the conscious species, past kin-selection. The question I ask is, Would the world be a better place if there were no more religion? My opinion is yes, at first. Then the world would quickly descend to something out of science fiction. soylent green, gattaca, and logan's run come quickly to mind. But it could go direct the other way too, if every person could be given 6 acres and a mule, and not allowed to have more than 2 children. How about some of yins professional biological-economist types tell me what yall think.

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10-21-2002, 08:08 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	What are you talking about? I think you need to be more explicit about how your question relates to evolution.

10-21-2002, 08:14 PM	#3
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	I am not an athiest, but I don't see how believing in God makes life seem any more valuable or worthwhile. In fact, I recognize that it can be quite the opposite. For someone to outright reject the possiblitiy of God and an afterlife, they may tend to see life as being more precious due to it's ephemeral nature. You exist one minute, then are gone the next - so you better make it worth living (and that includes making other people's lives worthwhile too). Many many religous people, and religions, have clearly stated that life is all about suffering and that if you are suffering, well you have the chance to go to a better place - or maybe you just deserve it. A born again christian once told me that the Ethiopians deserved to starve and that it was God's punishment for them for being communist, and therefore we should not send them aid. How charitable is that? He certainly was not interested in making the world a better place, or making thier lives more worthwhile. Life's meaning is only what we incorporate into it. I cannot imagine an existance where meaning is imposed, but only if you toe the line. I think the world would be far better off without it. NOw,as far as science (and specifically evolutionary theory) goes - well it just does not address the concept of life's meaning. Therefor the debate is mute. Your question about do we need religion could find a better home in one of the other forums on this board.

10-21-2002, 08:15 PM	#4
Aethari Veteran Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 1,635	Well, ID, that question really seems to dpend on what exactly you mean. I think that if you're asking "if, overnight, all religion, religious imagery, and religious thought disappeared, would the world be better?", the answer should be a pretty clear no. So much of many societies are built, sometimes foundationally, on religion. To simply 'poof' religion away would leave a dispairing world sunk in chaos. If we are talking about a society that has gradually evolved to a point without religion, and created secular replacements for what religion 'does' for people now, I don't really have an answer. I don't think we can do any reasonable analysis of 'benefit/harm results' between some unknown secular replacement and religion. Sure, we can be optimistic, and hope a secular replacement could do all the good things religion does, while avoid all the bad. But this isn't certain, and seems to tread somewhat idealistically. Even if this replacement avoided all the problems of religion, it would surely entail its own unique difficulties, and we are in no position to judge the results. On a different note, if we're speaking from a philosophical, almost Platonic sense, then if religion is a false ideology, and we dispose of it, then society is better off because we are closer to the truth. However, I sensed you were talking more about pragmatic social ramifications. -Aethari [ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aethari ]</p>

10-21-2002, 08:32 PM	#5
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	Religion has it's place, it's just gotten rather screwed up in the past few centuries, particularly the Christians. Fortunately, there is now a movement among them taking Christianity in a less intrusive direction. The Muslims are getting a bit hardcore, lately, which may be a problem in the future .

10-21-2002, 08:34 PM	#6
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	I'm a dreamer, I dream, yesssssssssss, I dream, and perhaps my vision for the world may seem a little twisted to some...

10-22-2002, 08:17 AM	#7
Illusion Dweller Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Erie PA Posts: 46	Sorry for being vague. I wasn't suggesting "what if religion was abolished tomorrow?" Rather, it seems the trend that more and more wise people are /converting/ to atheism. Less have the need to feel special or separate as far as the rest of biology & science are concerned. Eventually, the devout will be a minority, do some radical on-the-brink-of-apocalypse stuff, then disappear. I wondered if man, vision un-clouded, would find a tamer role on earth, with eachother & in the eco-system. Dawkins talked about memes, but he never said anything about their value, or truth. Is the religion riding on our species backs a help or a hindrance?

10-22-2002, 08:58 AM	#9
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I second Wyz's suggestion. Religion Explained is well-written and very informative.

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