Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Heathen Dawn · 11-26-2002, 10:14 AM

What makes theism theism? Is it belief in God? Actually not. One can be a deist, believing in a God that left the universe to run all by itself after creating it. The uniqueness of theism, and in fact what makes it so dangerous, is the belief in the sovereign-God: the one who controls fate. The external Lord over the fates of all creatures. The king who decrees who shall live and who shall die.

The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate pierces right into the heart of theism. Says this argument: if there is indeed a God controlling the fates of all creatures, then we can discern a pattern of fate whereby it is controlled. If there is no such ability of discernment - if all good and evil that befalls creatures is arbitrary, according to the autonomous of natural elements - then can we safely say that the all-controlling sovereign-God does not exist.

The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate improves upon the Argument from Evil. Instead of saying that evil is evidence for no God, it says that good as well as evil is such evidence. Basically, it is because the good is as baffling as the evil, that we can conclude the non-existence of the all-controlling God.

Possible counter-argument: "we cannot know God's ways". But this argument robs the arguer of ability to say anything about God. If we cannot know his ways and thoughts, then we cannot know if he dislikes murder, homosexuality, pork or anything.

Application of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument: when people die in a group disaster, it so happens that the aggregate of people is of different lifestyles, beliefs, deeds and creeds, especially in our pluralistic society. Think of the passengers in air crashes. It is quite clear that they died by mere flow of fate, by chancing to be at the same place at the same time. On the other hand, the theory that God rules fates leaves an unanswered question here.

Essence of Argument from Nonsystematic Fate: Q: Why does the fate of all creatures behave as it is by autonomous individual flow, as if there is no controller over it? A: Because it is indeed so - there is no controller over fate. If it walks like a duck, etc...

To quote Richard Dawkins:

"In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." (River Out Of Eden, p.133)

Why does the Universe behave precisely as if there were no God controlling it? Because there really is no God controlling. That is the essence of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument.

I leave it now to you to evaluate, argue, refute and suchlike.

quip · 11-26-2002, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
 - if all good and evil that befalls creatures is arbitrary, according to the autonomous of natural elements - then can we safely say that the all-controlling sovereign-God does not exist.

If the �autonomy� of �natural elements� includes man, this implies human free-will thus refuting the determinism argument; this does not refute a claim that a non-all-controlling God bestowed such free-will upon men.

Such was the subject of an earlier post regarding the 'feasibility' (or lack there-of) of God designing a evil-free world.

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: quip ]

Asha'man · 11-26-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
Why does the Universe behave precisely as if there were no God controlling it? Because there really is no God controlling. That is the essence of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument.

Sweet. Well stated. I'm gonna have to keep this one ready to use.

hinduwoman · 11-26-2002, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
What makes theism theism? Is it belief in God? Actually not. One can be a deist, believing in a God that left the universe to run all by itself after creating it. The uniqueness of theism, and in fact what makes it so dangerous, is the belief in the sovereign-God: the one who controls fate. The external Lord over the fates of all creatures. The king who decrees who shall live and who shall die.

The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate pierces right into the heart of theism. Says this argument: if there is indeed a God controlling the fates of all creatures, then we can discern a pattern of fate whereby it is controlled. If there is no such ability of discernment - if all good and evil that befalls creatures is arbitrary, according to the autonomous of natural elements - then can we safely say that the all-controlling sovereign-God does not exist.

The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate improves upon the Argument from Evil. Instead of saying that evil is evidence for no God, it says that good as well as evil is such evidence. Basically, it is because the good is as baffling as the evil, that we can conclude the non-existence of the all-controlling God.

Possible counter-argument: "we cannot know God's ways". But this argument robs the arguer of ability to say anything about God. If we cannot know his ways and thoughts, then we cannot know if he dislikes murder, homosexuality, pork or anything.

...
Why does the Universe behave precisely as if there were no God controlling it? Because there really is no God controlling. That is the essence of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument.

I leave it now to you to evaluate, argue, refute and suchlike.

The mysterious ways of God will always be a good defence for a theist. You can say that then we cannot say anything about what God likes or dislikes, but that is what the prophets are here for. God chooses certain people to reveal his likes and dislikes and it is not for you to question why. So fate is controlled by him after all, only being a finite human you cannot figure out His will until he reveals himself to you specially.

Jobar · 11-26-2002, 05:11 PM

Ecc. 9:11-
"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Joy is not to the righteous, nor misery to the wicked.

Ecc. 3:19-21-

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast; for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

Even the Preacher knew that fate was random. Yes, there is wisdom to be found in the Bible!

Davo · 11-26-2002, 08:11 PM

Heathen Dawn,

Quote:

The uniqueness of theism, and in fact what makes it so dangerous, is the belief in the sovereign-God: the one who controls fate.

What do you mean by controls fate here? That God directs us all like puppets to an extent where we have no free will? If so, I don't know many people who would take the label "theist" who believe that. And if not, if your definition of "controlling fate" is quite inclusive of free will and the natural course of human interaction, surely it's not surprising that the "fate" we arrive at can appear unfair at times.

B. H. Manners · 11-26-2002, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
Ecc. 9:11-
"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Joy is not to the righteous, nor misery to the wicked.

Ecc. 3:19-21-

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast; for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

Even the Preacher knew that fate was random. Yes, there is wisdom to be found in the Bible!

Don't tell our fundy friends that. They think America is another "chosen nation" and that individuals succeed or fail in life based on how much they are "blessed" instead of time,chance, skill, ect.

Heathen Dawn · 11-27-2002, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Davo:

What do you mean by controls fate here?

I don't know it myself. What I know is that the theists keep in on harping about it, as in "September 11 happened because God lifted the veil of protection" or "it was God's will" or such sayings. Theism holds that, though we have free will, everything that happens must happen according to God's decree.

Keith Russell · 11-27-2002, 07:27 AM

Greetings:

Oh, there is a rhyme and reason to the universe, it's just that the conclusions of reason don't lead to the recognition of our lives as having 'primary' (or even secondary or tertiary) significance.

There is order to the universe--but that order does not favour us. Upon realizing that, saying 'there is no order', is still a lie.

Keith.

Davo · 11-27-2002, 04:08 PM

Heathen Dawn,

Quote:

Theism holds that, though we have free will, everything that happens must happen according to God's decree.

OK, that's fair enough, though I would say God's will rather than decree, because someone's will can be enacted without coercion, whereas saying "decree" seems to imply that God has commanded us to behave in certain ways.

What makes you think that God's will is to let good, godly Christians live long, happy and prosperous lives, and make unbelievers and people who live alternative lifestyles incur an awful fate on earth?

11-26-2002, 10:14 AM	#1
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Argument from Nonsystematic Fate What makes theism theism? Is it belief in God? Actually not. One can be a deist, believing in a God that left the universe to run all by itself after creating it. The uniqueness of theism, and in fact what makes it so dangerous, is the belief in the sovereign-God: the one who controls fate. The external Lord over the fates of all creatures. The king who decrees who shall live and who shall die. The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate pierces right into the heart of theism. Says this argument: if there is indeed a God controlling the fates of all creatures, then we can discern a pattern of fate whereby it is controlled. If there is no such ability of discernment - if all good and evil that befalls creatures is arbitrary, according to the autonomous of natural elements - then can we safely say that the all-controlling sovereign-God does not exist. The Argument from Nonsystematic Fate improves upon the Argument from Evil. Instead of saying that evil is evidence for no God, it says that good as well as evil is such evidence. Basically, it is because the good is as baffling as the evil, that we can conclude the non-existence of the all-controlling God. Possible counter-argument: "we cannot know God's ways". But this argument robs the arguer of ability to say anything about God. If we cannot know his ways and thoughts, then we cannot know if he dislikes murder, homosexuality, pork or anything. Application of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument: when people die in a group disaster, it so happens that the aggregate of people is of different lifestyles, beliefs, deeds and creeds, especially in our pluralistic society. Think of the passengers in air crashes. It is quite clear that they died by mere flow of fate, by chancing to be at the same place at the same time. On the other hand, the theory that God rules fates leaves an unanswered question here. Essence of Argument from Nonsystematic Fate: Q: Why does the fate of all creatures behave as it is by autonomous individual flow, as if there is no controller over it? A: Because it is indeed so - there is no controller over fate. If it walks like a duck, etc... To quote Richard Dawkins: "In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." (River Out Of Eden, p.133) Why does the Universe behave precisely as if there were no God controlling it? Because there really is no God controlling. That is the essence of the Nonsystematic Fate Argument. I leave it now to you to evaluate, argue, refute and suchlike.

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11-26-2002, 05:11 PM	#5
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Ecc. 9:11- "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all." Joy is not to the righteous, nor misery to the wicked. Ecc. 3:19-21- "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast; for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Even the Preacher knew that fate was random. Yes, there is wisdom to be found in the Bible!

11-27-2002, 07:27 AM	#9
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Oh, there is a rhyme and reason to the universe, it's just that the conclusions of reason don't lead to the recognition of our lives as having 'primary' (or even secondary or tertiary) significance. There is order to the universe--but that order does not favour us. Upon realizing that, saying 'there is no order', is still a lie. Keith.

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