Philosoft

SOMMS,

I'll reply at more length later, but for now, one question. Your argument seems to make a number of not-so-obvious assumptions. Assuming you haven't posted it and I missed it, is there any scriptural support for your argument? Otherwise, what is to differentiate it from every other ad hoc justification for paucity of evidence?

phlebas

At the time I was searching, when I was about 16 or so, I would have answered yes to all of those questions.

The problem wasn't just that I didn't hear God's voice in my head, it's also that this didn't seem to be at all the kind of world the God described in the Bible would make. (It still doesn't -- but 20 years ago, I thought that was a bad thing )

I think the word "relationship" doesn't really apply to what someone would have with God if they were eager to do all of what you mentioned above. I have relationships with friends and family but on mutual respect and enjoyment among peers.

What this sounds more like is the relationship I have with my dogs. Except the list of things for which they get punished is far shorter. (No fighting, and don't pee on the good carpet.)

I don't have any evidence God exists. Apparently, you are unable to share your evidence with someone like me. That alone would be enough for me to disbelieve.

However, that list of demands above sounds like indentured servitude. If that's what God has in mind by my "getting to know him," I'll pass.

That's the trouble with being a humanist -- you tend to think that humans are worth something

Echo

I'm picturing the following scenario:

Joe Atheist is zooming down the road, trying to get his very pregnant wife to the hospital. The wail of a siren approaches behind him. He pulls over.

Officer Christian approaches the car and asks for a license and registration.

"You just plowed right through that stop sign back there."
"Stop sign...?"
"yep, blew right on past it, never even slowed down."
"I"m sorry officer..I didn't see a stop sign."
"Well, it's right there." Officer Christian points over his shoulder. Joe atheist looks around, sees no stop sign.
"Where did you say that stop sign was? I don't see anything...
"It's *right there*"
Joe Atheist scans the wide expanse of farmland behind him. Sees no stop sign.
"I'm sorry officer...but I really don't see a stop sign anywhere."
Officer Christian takes out his pen and begins scratching out a ticket. "Seems to me you just don't want to see the stop sign."
"Excuse me?"
Officer Christian looks up from the ticket, exasperated. "Well, you have to want to see the stop sign in order to see the stop sign, and you don't want to see the stop sign, so consequently you don't see the stop sign. Of course, you're still going to get a ticket for running it."
"But..I *do* want to see the stop sign. If a stop sign was there, I'd certainly want to know it."
"Would you have run it even if you had seen it and knew it was there?"
"No."
Officer Christian stares at him.
"Well..maybe..I might have run it since there are no other cars around and, you see, my wife is going into labor and..."
"Ah, well that explains it..you would have run the stop sign anyway, so obviously you're just not ready to handle the stop sign and therefore you can't see the stop sign."
Officer Christian hands him a ticket and rides off into the sunset, leaving Joe Atheist to bang his head against the steering wheel."

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Jamie_L

SOMMS:

Thanks for responding.

It seems like you are saying that the answer to my question is that people who don't believe didn't actually have the right attitude and/or didn't actually seek God sincerely, even though they think or claim they did.

You didn't actually come out and say that explicitly, so correct me if I'm interpretting wrong.

It seems to me, however, that this is a bit of a "No True Scottsman" situation. No Sincere Seeker Of God would not find him, so those who did not find him must not have Sincerely Sought God.

I believe that I could have answered "Yes" to all the questions you presented. I always wanted to believe, but had nagging doubts. I did a lot of seeking to find answers to those doubts within the framework of my belief in God. Eventually, I just took a break from worrying about it, and became a sort-of de facto agnostic. Then I made one more run at belief - diving into the NT with a belief that it was true, and that understanding it better would make me a better person. Yet, in the midst of that seeking, I came across counter-arguements by chance that just made much more sense.

I just don't feel like I missed some sign because I had the wrong attitude. And if I couldn't recognize the wrong attitude, how would I be expected to know when I had the right attitude?

Jamie

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

phlebas,


Exactly. Could not have said this better myself.

The common theme of the relationships you mention here is equality. You are equal or a peer with these (and any other) people.

An elemental aspect of a relationship with God is the acknowledgement that you are, in fact, not equal with God. Surely you would admit that if God did exist this would be the case, yes?


I certainly can share my evidence with you.

I could tell you that my life completely changed. I could tell you about the all-encompassing overwhelming peace that was not there before. I could tell you that I became truly happy where as before I was merely content. I could tell you that God does speak if you listen. I could tell you that *every* time I've really needed help AND asked for God's assistance...I've received it. I could tell you that, on occasion, I have felt God's presence, and it was both a wonderful and terrifying experience. In fact, it is so real that all else pales in comparison.

But of course, if you really wished to...you could disregard all this on the grounds that it is personal. There were no physical instruments measuring it...so it must not be real.


Well, in fact, these aren't demands.


That's the whole point. If God demanded these things than your decision to do them would be completely moot.

Again...this is the whole point of what we are talking about: God wants those who, without him demanding it, naturally do the above.


Something you said before...the phone metaphor.
Maybe he's trying to call you back.

How would you ever know unless you listened?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

phlebas

The common theme of the relationships you mention here is equality. You are equal or a peer with these (and any other) people.

An elemental aspect of a relationship with God is the acknowledgement that you are, in fact, not equal with God. Surely you would admit that if God did exist this would be the case, yes?

If there was anything like the Christian God out there, then yes, I can see that he and I would not exactly be equals.

But that was my point. How can that be called any kind of relationship? That's more like being property. A relationship with humans is also about helping each other in some way -- how can we help God?

I compared it previously to my relationship with my dogs. But that's not accurate, because I am not infinitely more intelligent than my dogs. (Well, at least not two of them... my Husky is exceptionally stupid.)

Since God is this omni-being, and any number compared to infinity is zero, then everything non-infinite about me would also be zero when compared to him.

I don't know how old you are, but do you remember the Pet Rock craze? Your relationship with your rock would be about on par with it.

I certainly can share my evidence with you.
I could tell you that my life completely changed. I could tell you about the all-encompassing overwhelming peace that was not there before. I could tell you that I became truly happy where as before I was merely content. I could tell you that God does speak if you listen. I could tell you that *every* time I've really needed help AND asked for God's assistance...I've received it. I could tell you that, on occasion, I have felt God's presence, and it was both a wonderful and terrifying experience. In fact, it is so real that all else pales in comparison.

But of course, if you really wished to...you could disregard all this on the grounds that it is personal. There were no physical instruments measuring it...so it must not be real.

I would never say it's not real. But I would never say it's evidence, either. Humans are notoriously poor at discerning truth. That's why science is so slow, and why it's got all those error-checking mechanisms in it.

If I told you that I felt the same awe, the same all-encompassing peace, and the same joy when I admitted my atheism to myself, would you think that counted as evidence that there is no god?

However, that list of demands above sounds like indentured servitude. If that's what God has in mind by my "getting to know him," I'll pass.

Well, in fact, these aren't demands.

That's the whole point. If God demanded these things than your decision to do them would be completely moot.

If God merely requested them, my decision would be just as moot.

But according to mainstream Christian theology, these things that God does not demand will cost me torture forever. That's simple coersion. It's no different than signing a contract with a gun pointed to your head.

Again...this is the whole point of what we are talking about: God wants those who, without him demanding it, naturally do the above.

And punishes those who do not, in his infinite love and mercy.

Doesn't all that seem extremely petty for an infinite being?

I'm not closing the door forever. I don't have his number blocked But I am done leaving messages on his machine.

Maybe he's trying to call you back. How would you ever know unless you listened?

Okay, we're about to stretch a perfectly good metaphor beyond all reason.

I'm not the one who is hard to reach. If God wanted to make his presence known, he could certainly do it. I tried my best to get in touch with him, is it so much to ask for him to try his best to get in touch with me? For an all-powerful being, it wouldn't be THAT big a burden.

Are you there, God? It's me, phlebas.

daemon

Good grief, I can't believe this silliness has spawned this much conversation. Has anyone pointed out that SOMMS's entire argument is an ad hominem fallacy?

Amos

Only knowledge frees and nobody can make it with faith or there would be temples in the New Jerusalem. Besides, since faith must be paired with doubt it would mean that, if faithers can go to heaven it can be said that doubters can go to heaven and that would in the end mean that atheists can go to heaven and that would not be fair to theists. Remember here that God is fair and just.

Edited to add: why do you think that Jesus said "get thee behind me satan" if faith (Peter here) was not a liability to get to heaven.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

ELECTROGOD

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
&gt;&gt;Most (not all) athiests would not seek/choose God even if they knew he existed. This is amazing to me.


That's because your version of "god" sucks. But since it doesn't exist anyway then there is no "amazing" problem here.
What if every woman in the world wanted to have sex with me? Would I do it? Should I do it? Could I do it? What would the result if I could or if I couldn't? The question is not a real problem for me because, though it's fun to think about, it's not a real problem, it's fantasy.
You are giving us unreal situations and then acting incredulous when we don't take your side of it. Your conclusion is not a logical conclusion but you seem to think that it is.
For you to continue to go on about how we must be crazy to not be willing to accept a fairytale if it were true, you will need to define everything about your god and your religious beliefs pertaining to that god so that we know which exact fairytale you subscribe to or are altering. You come with what you think are a few clever questions and that's it. Did you know that there have been thousands of DIFFERENT religions throughout history and there are currently thousands of DIFFERENT religions still today? Maybe I should narrow it down and ask which of the 28,000 different denominations of Christianity since it's beginning do you feel is the "correct" one and why is it better than all of the rest and how could everyone else be so wrong?
All of us here know where you are going with it and it amounts to an invisible hill of beans. We just aren't interested in your version of "god". We know the history, the belief structure, the requirements, supposed deeds and writings and the imagined future for your religion (and others) and we just think that it...sucks. Can't you come up with a better one? There are some other ones out there that sure sound a whole lot better, even though they are fairytales too.
We aren't just uninterested in your god, we have found that we don't NEED any god fairytale in our lives. Your Jesus character demonstrated that one person could make a difference and prove that humans can be saved from hell......well, if one person doesn't believe in an all-powerful invisible being then it proves that the being doesn't exist because it is not an all-powerful being that cannot be denied.

wdog

only to make it there, once there then you would have proof and not need faith. so your conclusion is incorrect.

no, as I said earlier it logically need not be...

again, faulty logic here and doubting thomas was blessed after he got to see the proof. so doubters can go to heaven

oh I see. you need heaven to be an exclusive club (so we can feel smug?). but remember the story of how when one wayward son returned the father killed the fatted calf? you are not practising good christianity and you certainly lack capacity for mercy and compassion, just like your 'just' god does.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: wdog ]</p>