Noesis

Hello,

My Christian friend continually tells me that my problems with the meaning of "God" are illusory, since the meaning of YHWH provides a definition, namely, "I will be what I will be" (according to him).

The meaning of YHWH--"I will be what I will be"--is not only vague and based on revelation, but is also circular, because one is still left wondering what "I" means. Theists state that "I" is the entity. This, however, is blatant circular reasoning, for one then asks about the nature of the entity, and the meaning of YHWH is provided. The theist has built "I" into the definition of the entity, and thus begs the question.

Does anyone know how to swiftly handle this situation, preferably in a way that will convey this insuperable problem? Most Christians I have encountered love to quibble about Biblical veracity, as they can just turn to Geisler or Craig and then skip happily to church, with the feeling that they have won the argument. My objections are more philosophical than philological. Thanks in advance.

Jobar

Welcome to Internet Infidels, Noesis.

You ask-
Does anyone know how to swiftly handle this situation, preferably in a way that will convey this insuperable problem?

Ah, would that we did! Trying to show believers that their God is self-contradicting and impossible to define is the whole point of this forum- and despite the huge amount of thought by large numbers of very intelligent people, we have no surefire way to demonstrate the irrationality of theistic belief. It seems to me that no two believers actually believe in the same God- so the argument must be individually tailored for each believer.

And then you have to get them to *listen*.

malookiemaloo

Yes, but could a creature ever understand it's creator and successfully then compress Him into its own definition of rationality?

Just a thought.


m

Jobar

Malookiemaloo, perhaps one day we will build a self-aware computer. I propose that we defer this question until we have created such a thing, as I feel sure you will not accept, say, the fact that children can come to understand the actions and motives of their parents.

One thing I'm sure of- such a hypothetical intelligent machine will know beyond any doubt that humans- its creators- do, indeed, exist!

Noesis

Jobar,

You are right in saying that each Christian has a unique conception of God, and that the attributes of God are readily modified when contradictions arise.

As I am new to this branch of philosophy, what books should I read in order to establish a framework? I have read Atheism: The Case Against God by Smith, and am in the process of reading The Age of Reason by Paine. I would like to find an objective book on the history and life of Jesus.

Thanks in advance.

Wyrdsmyth

I think the middle paragraph of your original post is about the swiftest way to deal with the issue. Of course, you can point out circular reasoning, but that doesn't mean -- by a long shot -- that the person you're pointing it out to will recognize it. They may be unwilling or unable to. So, there is no swift way to deconvert someone. Keep the dialogue open, and ongoing. That is the only real hope of getting through to someone.

I always thought 'I am who I am' was kind of a smart-ass answer myself, the sort of answer an outlaw in an old Western would have given:

"What's your name?" the marshall asked.

"I am who I am," the desperado squinted, and then spit some chew onto the dusty ground.

"I asked you a question," the marshall said sternly.

"And I gave you an answer," the desperado spit again.

"So... What do you want me to call you? 'I am who I am,'?" the marshall asked. "That's a hell of a name."

"Now, you're just playing semantics, marshall," the desperado said. "You know darn well I was just being a smart-ass. I wasn't giving a proper name, nor was I trying to be deep in some mystical, existentialist, philosophical kind of way."

Priapus

I always thought it was what Popeye used to say, or was that "I yam what I yam"?

Jobar

Noesis, I suggest Critiques of God edited by Peter Angeles; as for a reasonable bio of Jesus, I don't think one exists. Of course, I doubt Jesus existed as anything but myth; try any of the works of G.A. Wells, such as Did Jesus Exist? or The Jesus of the Early Christians. Very heavy Biblical scholarship. And of course, the classic works of Robert Ingersoll are never out of date. Not long ago I read The Bible Unearthed; I think that's a book anyone interested in Western religion should read.

We have a huge library on site; it's a fantastic resource. Any number of excellent books are reviewed there. And our Biblical Criticism & Archeology forum is a fine place to ask any specifically Biblical questions.

malookiemaloo

You might try to get a hold of the Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim. He lived last century but was brought up a Jew. The book is quite detailed but is the best one I know for setting Jesus's life in the context of Palestine at that time.

best,


m

malookiemaloo

Don't think the parent/child illustration is relevant. An adult and a child are equal, the adult has just been on planet earth that bit longer.

Ah, the computer!! So how do you know that we may have one some day? Is this an act of faith?!


m