Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 05-20-2003, 11:46 AM

Whoops-=--

Missed Rhea's post before posting the previous.-------

I hope, Rhea, that you got at least a little bit out of the previous post. Different generations you know, and different experiences.

Do not mean to demean your experience at all. I am sure they were very real to you.

But try at least to understand an older generation's viewpoint as being different than yours. And from my generation's experience ---learning not to take much of anything terribly serious.

Times change with time. Attitudes change with time. Bush will be gone in 2004. Or God help us all--at least by 2008

And all will be loverly. Nothing is really all that serious. Don't make it so.

This society has and always has had a leveling aspect to it. The Fundies will NOT take over the world. That I promise you.

Rhea · 05-20-2003, 11:53 AM

Shaking my head and trying to figure out why you think that you and I belong to different generations.

You've done an admirable job of distancing yourself from your declaration that you "highly doubt" my testimony. Perhaps you feel it doesn't need to be addressed. Whatever. Perhaps that's common in "your generation"

How you seem to say that EVERYONE on "your generation" had an identical experience.

I think. Maybe. You need to get out more. (Try it)

Rational BAC · 05-20-2003, 12:14 PM

Rhea----

I do know my own generation. After all I lived with it.

OK --------I have no idea how old you are. Try this though, at least as far as understanding one of my previous posts.

Did you learn the Pledge the "old way"? Do you have any idea how hard it was for us little kiddies in the mid-fifties to change something we had said for 1000's of times? Do you understand how hard it was for those who learned the Pledge the "old way" was to take the thing very seriously anyway?

But back to the original question-----------How did you learn the pledge? With "Under God" in it? Or not?

A simple answer will do.

Rhea · 05-20-2003, 12:24 PM

I learned it the new way. I think I am 10 or 15 years younger than you are. When I started school, girls were not permitted to wear pants. I know how hard it is to change some things. But it doesn't mean we tell someone else they are paranoid delusional. We say, "Wow, I had no idea. That is so different from what I knew." In my generation, that is.

Rational BAC · 05-20-2003, 12:33 PM

Sorry I was so strong on the paranoid part ---------Rhea

It was meant more jokingly than anything else.

Again------those from my generation take very little seriously.

Muffinstuffer · 05-20-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
Although again, I thank you for presenting EXHIBIT A to explain to our friend MuffinStuffer just exactly where my civility is coming from if he approaches me the day after someone like you has. Perhaps MuffinStuffer will have a newfound compassion for the history which can lie behind a curmudgeonly response to his witness.

Say, Rhea, lemme tell ya ALL about my faith.....

Ronin · 05-20-2003, 01:05 PM

As for those on this thread proposing a child either mumble past the offending Godspeak or expose themselves as isolated radicals by declining to participate in the Pledge ritual, consider this ~

Would you feel comfortable having someone lead the Pledge using the words "Under No Gods at all" or "Under Brahma"?

Would you or your child feel just that much emnity and isolation by having to covertly mumble something different or be outed as some sort of radical?

Granted, I don't think anyone ever said that this is earth-shattering stuff.

However, there is a principle involved and it forces individuals to be disingenuous or exposed when a neutral option is available to promote justice for all.

More importantly, it teaches my atheist children to work under the rule that it is not always necessary to follow the instructions of the teacher.

Let the individual family tradition speak of the gods...governments never.

In the name of true liberty.

Sabine Grant · 05-20-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
.

Again you mock Rhea and anyone else who has experienced the peer pressure and ostracization weapons of the mainstream with your snide references to spies and big brother. You are wrong. Not because freemasons are recording our every bedfart, but because many people in this country view anything less than full-volume flag-humping declamations as suspiciously lacking in patriotism.

I mentionned earlier the " dirty looks" I recieve as I cannot utter words that are meaningless to me. Of course the folks around me as I remain silent during the Pledge cannot read my mind and understand that I am simply not an American Citizen....... However the " dirty looks " are indeed part of of an oppressive reaction to my not participating in what you define as " full volume flag humping declamation".
I agree with you Livius that there is peer pressure involved in reciting the Pledge because it is percieved as a demonstration of patriotism. I mentionned earlier that children who in school choose to not recitate " under God" or the entire Pledge become the center of negative attention.
I think if I were an American citizen, I might not even recitate the Pledge. I am a bit lurry about nationalistic demonstrations.
As a personal anecdote while I lived in Ga., I was confused as to how the same people who flew a Confederate Flag over their homes had no problems pledging Allegiance to the Stars and Stripes.

Ronin · 05-20-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

I mentionned earlier the " dirty looks" I recieve as I cannot utter words that are meaningless to me. Of course the folks around me as I remain silent during the Pledge cannot read my mind and understand that I am simply not an American Citizen....... However the " dirty looks " are indeed part of of an oppressive reaction to my not participating in what you define as " full volume flag humping declamation".
I agree with you Livius that there is peer pressure involved in reciting the Pledge because it is percieved as a demonstration of patriotism. I mentionned earlier that children who in school choose to not recitate " under God" or the entire Pledge become the center of negative attention.
I think if I were an American citizen, I might not even recitate the Pledge. I am a bit lurry about nationalistic demonstrations.

:notworthy

I fixed my chair since the last time we agreed on something, Sabine...so I won't be falling on my ass today.

Rational BAC · 05-20-2003, 01:35 PM

Going back to one of Ronins statements in a post. ---------

I think that a child NOT obeying his teacher's instructions is one of the best things he or she could learn in his or her whole life.

But I remember the 60's so well and the anti-establishment fervor of the times------------so maybe that is just me.

Teachers are fine ------just take them with a grain of salt.

And---just remember--you know best.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-20-2003, 11:46 AM	#31
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Whoops-=-- Missed Rhea's post before posting the previous.------- I hope, Rhea, that you got at least a little bit out of the previous post. Different generations you know, and different experiences. Do not mean to demean your experience at all. I am sure they were very real to you. But try at least to understand an older generation's viewpoint as being different than yours. And from my generation's experience ---learning not to take much of anything terribly serious. Times change with time. Attitudes change with time. Bush will be gone in 2004. Or God help us all--at least by 2008 And all will be loverly. Nothing is really all that serious. Don't make it so. This society has and always has had a leveling aspect to it. The Fundies will NOT take over the world. That I promise you.

05-20-2003, 11:53 AM	#32
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Shaking my head and trying to figure out why you think that you and I belong to different generations. You've done an admirable job of distancing yourself from your declaration that you "highly doubt" my testimony. Perhaps you feel it doesn't need to be addressed. Whatever. Perhaps that's common in "your generation" How you seem to say that EVERYONE on "your generation" had an identical experience. I think. Maybe. You need to get out more. (Try it)

05-20-2003, 12:14 PM	#33
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Rhea---- I do know my own generation. After all I lived with it. OK --------I have no idea how old you are. Try this though, at least as far as understanding one of my previous posts. Did you learn the Pledge the "old way"? Do you have any idea how hard it was for us little kiddies in the mid-fifties to change something we had said for 1000's of times? Do you understand how hard it was for those who learned the Pledge the "old way" was to take the thing very seriously anyway? But back to the original question-----------How did you learn the pledge? With "Under God" in it? Or not? A simple answer will do.

05-20-2003, 12:24 PM	#34
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	I learned it the new way. I think I am 10 or 15 years younger than you are. When I started school, girls were not permitted to wear pants. I know how hard it is to change some things. But it doesn't mean we tell someone else they are paranoid delusional. We say, "Wow, I had no idea. That is so different from what I knew." In my generation, that is.

05-20-2003, 12:33 PM	#35
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sorry I was so strong on the paranoid part ---------Rhea It was meant more jokingly than anything else. Again------those from my generation take very little seriously.

05-20-2003, 01:05 PM	#37
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	As for those on this thread proposing a child either mumble past the offending Godspeak or expose themselves as isolated radicals by declining to participate in the Pledge ritual, consider this ~ Would you feel comfortable having someone lead the Pledge using the words "Under No Gods at all" or "Under Brahma"? Would you or your child feel just that much emnity and isolation by having to covertly mumble something different or be outed as some sort of radical? Granted, I don't think anyone ever said that this is earth-shattering stuff. However, there is a principle involved and it forces individuals to be disingenuous or exposed when a neutral option is available to promote justice for all. More importantly, it teaches my atheist children to work under the rule that it is not always necessary to follow the instructions of the teacher. Let the individual family tradition speak of the gods...governments never. In the name of true liberty.

05-20-2003, 01:35 PM	#40
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Going back to one of Ronins statements in a post. --------- I think that a child NOT obeying his teacher's instructions is one of the best things he or she could learn in his or her whole life. But I remember the 60's so well and the anti-establishment fervor of the times------------so maybe that is just me. Teachers are fine ------just take them with a grain of salt. And---just remember--you know best.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.