Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Fred Flintstonensis · 11-18-2002, 08:31 PM

What arguments should I use to combat the ocurrence (however you spell it--it's late and I am tired) of specifically christian prayers by protestant clergymen at the beginning of every city council meeting in my town (Bremerton, Washington)?

Outside of arguing about the Founding of the US and the Treaty with Tripoli and the dubious religiosity of many of the founders, I am not very experienced with this aspect of the atheist thing.

Sorry if this post sounds goofy, but I have already worked 25 hours this week and I worked almost 80 last week. I am usually much more articulate than this. haha

ybnormal · 11-18-2002, 11:04 PM

What "argument", other than a legal one, has ever won over a dedicated xian proceeding? <a href="http://www.celticcrow.com/news/prayerschool113.html" target="_blank">This</a> seems to work somewhat, with School Board meetings in Florida.

Quote:

January 10, 2001
INVERNESS -- Controversy over the format of prayers at the School Board meetings and religious gatherings in the schools grew even hotter Tuesday when an activist interrupted the board's opening prayer with a pagan incantation.

<a href="http://www.sptimes.com/2002/11/17/Citrus/Looking_back__without.shtml" target="_blank">This</a> is from a couple of days ago. Altho the writher claims that the "issue eventually fizzled", she follows that with this: The board's agenda now lists an opening "exercise" instead of an invocation.

Seems to me that it's about time folks give the xians what they want... lie, and admit that Atheism is a religion. Then any of us can go to any of these public meetings and read Buffman's response to the 10-commandments. I just love it when I come full circle and argue the exact opposite of a prior statement.

Toto · 11-18-2002, 11:34 PM

There was a case just decided in California involving prayers before the City Council of Burbank. It's Rubin v. Burbank described <a href="http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs10028.htm" target="_blank">here (scroll down)</a>

Quote:

Council Prayers Can�t Be Sectarian, California Court Rules

A California appeals court has ruled that Christian prayers offered at the beginning of city council meetings in Burbank are unconstitutional.

In a unanimous ruling issued on Sept. 9, the 2nd District Court of Appeals concluded that Burbank city officials were wrong to invite a Christian minister to offer a sectarian invocation at a city council meeting three years ago.

The controversy began in November 1999 when council members invited David King, a Mormon bishop, to offer a pre-meeting prayer. King concluded his prayer, "in the name of Jesus Christ."

. . .

City attorneys had argued the prayers were the private remarks of individuals. The state appeals court disagreed.

"By directing the prayer to �Our Father in Heaven...in the name of Jesus Christ,� the invocation conveyed the message that the Burbank City Council is a Christian body, and from this it could be inferred that the council was advancing a religious belief," the court said in Rubin v. Burbank. The decision added that "any legislative prayer that proselytizes or advances one religious belief or faith or disparages another" is unconstitutional.

Splat · 11-19-2002, 11:04 AM

If they insist on having a christian prayer, you might ask to be allowed to read the next prayer, then write to <a href="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/GMOW.html" target="_blank">Pastor Deacon Fred</a> over at Landover Baptist and see if he could whip up something for you to read. I'm sure they'd appreciate that.

GaryP · 11-19-2002, 01:19 PM

My council used to do the same thing.

They decided they maybe should not do it. So they say the Xian prayer just before the meeting is called to order.

I have thought that if I were brave enough, I would attend and when the prayer started, I would stand and start chanting some jibberish or better yet, start reading the First ammendment.

Voltaire Is My Hero · 11-22-2002, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred Flintstonensis:
<strong>What arguments should I use to combat the ocurrence (however you spell it--it's late and I am tired) of specifically christian prayers by protestant clergymen at the beginning of every city council meeting in my town (Bremerton, Washington)?

Outside of arguing about the Founding of the US and the Treaty with Tripoli and the dubious religiosity of many of the founders, I am not very experienced with this aspect of the atheist thing.

Sorry if this post sounds goofy, but I have already worked 25 hours this week and I worked almost 80 last week. I am usually much more articulate than this. haha</strong>

Maybe a simple statement mixed with a question would be a good course of action, i.e. "I don't feel comfortable with this opening prayer thing. Isn't this unconstitutional?" Sometimes an oblique approach is better than a head-on charge...

--Cindy

<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageofvoltaire" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageofvoltaire</a>
Subscribe: ageofvoltaire-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Voltaire Is My Hero ]</p>

11-18-2002, 08:31 PM	#1
Fred Flintstonensis Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Orla Vista, FL Posts: 34	Prayers at city council meetings What arguments should I use to combat the ocurrence (however you spell it--it's late and I am tired) of specifically christian prayers by protestant clergymen at the beginning of every city council meeting in my town (Bremerton, Washington)? Outside of arguing about the Founding of the US and the Treaty with Tripoli and the dubious religiosity of many of the founders, I am not very experienced with this aspect of the atheist thing. Sorry if this post sounds goofy, but I have already worked 25 hours this week and I worked almost 80 last week. I am usually much more articulate than this. haha

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-19-2002, 11:04 AM	#4
Splat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hell, PA Posts: 599	If they insist on having a christian prayer, you might ask to be allowed to read the next prayer, then write to <a href="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/GMOW.html" target="_blank">Pastor Deacon Fred</a> over at Landover Baptist and see if he could whip up something for you to read. I'm sure they'd appreciate that.

11-19-2002, 01:19 PM	#5
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	My council used to do the same thing. They decided they maybe should not do it. So they say the Xian prayer just before the meeting is called to order. I have thought that if I were brave enough, I would attend and when the prayer started, I would stand and start chanting some jibberish or better yet, start reading the First ammendment.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.