Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Shake · 09-20-2002, 09:07 AM

Not that I needed any more convincing that the FFs did indeed NOT intend this to be an Xian nation, but today I found this:

Quote:

In his "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, 1785," James Madison wrote, in part:

"1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, `that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the [Manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and] conviction, not by force or violence.' The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is [472 U.S. 38, 54] unalienable; because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds, cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also; because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. . . . We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society, and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance.

(bold added by me for emphasis) from <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=472&invol=38" target="_blank">here</a>. I've been reading the quotes from IIs main page and the URL I've provided is a link to WALLACE v. JAFFREE in the US Supreme Court from 1985. The link is quite lengthy, and no, I didn't read it all (wish I had the time, though). I just skimmed ever so briefly through and found the above quote. Very well put, I thought. It echoes sentiment I read elsewhere on the web yesterday that the best way to counter fundies is to be respectful of their views even as we may well disagree with them. The above link would seem (based on what little I've read) to contain a wealth of material to argue against the FFs establishing an Xian nation.

Shake · 09-20-2002, 09:16 AM

I don't normally like to be the first one to comment on my own topic, but I just found some more from Madison, just a bit further on:

Quote:

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?

... or whole other religions.

I agree with the sticker from <a href="http://www.evolvefish.com" target="_blank">Evolve FISH</a> which says, "If you want a country run by religion, move to Iran!"

Buffman · 09-20-2002, 03:05 PM

Yes! It can become quite exciting and enervating when a critical thinker begins to separate Christian propaganda for historically accurate fact.

May I recommend:

"James Madison on Religious Liberty" Robert S. Alley. Prometheus Books, Buffalo, New York, 1985.

This is a compilation of many papers and articles. It is chock full of accurate "revelations."

Shake · 09-23-2002, 11:24 AM

Thanks! I'll check it out!

fromtheright · 09-29-2002, 12:56 PM

I thought about making this a separate post but it is somewhat related: Has anyone seen a secularist review of Philip Hamburger's recent Separation of Church and State? Would you point me to same?

theyeti · 09-29-2002, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fromtheright:
<strong>I thought about making this a separate post but it is somewhat related: Has anyone seen a secularist review of Philip Hamburger's recent Separation of Church and State? Would you point me to same?</strong>

Well, I did find this from the <a href="http://www.bjcpa.org/Pages/Views/2002/08.07reflections.html" target="_blank">Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs</a>. Not exactly secular, but they give the book a sound thrashing.

theyeti

crazyfingers · 09-29-2002, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti:
<strong>

Well, I did find this from the <a href="http://www.bjcpa.org/Pages/Views/2002/08.07reflections.html" target="_blank">Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs</a>. Not exactly secular, but they give the book a sound thrashing.

theyeti</strong>

Depending on the audience, a Christian group thrashing the book would carry more weight than a "secular" group doing so.

Buffman · 09-29-2002, 10:08 PM

Great find! I wish I had read it before responding to 'fromtheright' in a different topic string. It identifies specific Hamburger points about which I was not aware. Oh well! I am now. Thanks, 'theyeti'.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-20-2002, 03:05 PM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Yes! It can become quite exciting and enervating when a critical thinker begins to separate Christian propaganda for historically accurate fact. May I recommend: "James Madison on Religious Liberty" Robert S. Alley. Prometheus Books, Buffalo, New York, 1985. This is a compilation of many papers and articles. It is chock full of accurate "revelations."

09-23-2002, 11:24 AM	#4
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Thanks! I'll check it out!

09-29-2002, 12:56 PM	#5
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	I thought about making this a separate post but it is somewhat related: Has anyone seen a secularist review of Philip Hamburger's recent Separation of Church and State? Would you point me to same?

09-29-2002, 10:08 PM	#8
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Great find! I wish I had read it before responding to 'fromtheright' in a different topic string. It identifies specific Hamburger points about which I was not aware. Oh well! I am now. Thanks, 'theyeti'.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.