Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BadBadBad · 07-31-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wordsmyth
I think this whole idea that God is hiding so that we have freewill to believe or not believe is nonsensical. It also seems just a little convenient that every deity in the world requires exactly the same amount of faith to believe in their existence.

Nobody seems to doubt the existence of the Pope and yet how many people are Catholic. Every non-Catholic has demonstrated that they still have freewill, despite the obvious existence of the Pope. There is no reason to believe that if the xian deity made his presence known to all mankind that everyone would suddenly lose their freewill.

It seems to me that it would be more important to follow God, rather than to believe in his existence and making his existence known certainly would not preclude people from choosing not to follow him. But why should anyone follow the xian deity when there is no more evidence for his existence than for any other deity.

In fact, if God were to make his presence evident to everyone, it would give us more freewill because then we could make an informed choice rather than one based on Pascal's Wager.

I noticed this seemed to get skipped over. This is a pretty damned good point. If God shows his face, the holy light reflects off my retina. My brain senses nerve impulses. I think about it. Hmmm. What's that. Is it a man, well kind of sounds like one. Is it a fire? Well not exactly. Must be a strange fire. Is it a bush? Well not really. It's burning, but not being consumed. Says he's God. Hmmm. Well is that satan, or allah, or who else? Am I just imagining this? Sounds like a lot of choices to me. Can someone explain to us all about how this eliminates free will? How am I not free to believe what I choose? It was pretty obvious to Moses, why can't he make it obvious to me?

Why wouldn't God making his presence obvious to every one serve his purpose more than the silly crap he "revealed" in the Bible? I bet any answer we get eliminates omnipotence.

Llyricist · 08-01-2003, 09:13 PM

LWF,
It seems you missed the point. Neither Jamie nor I are arguing that free will doesn't exist, just that it is not relevent to love. That is, you need to find another reason why god would want us to have free will, because the ability to love seems to have nothing to do with free will.

long winded fool · 08-02-2003, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Llyricist
LWF,
It seems you missed the point. Neither Jamie nor I are arguing that free will doesn't exist, just that it is not relevent to love. That is, you need to find another reason why god would want us to have free will, because the ability to love seems to have nothing to do with free will.

On the contrary, it is utterly dependent on it. As stated in my last post, free will must be assumed to exist for humans to function. (We must believe that we can alter future events.) Therefore, free will will always be an accurate description of reality. You accept this. Now, love is a human function. Therefore free will must exist for humans to love. If God wants humans to love, he must give them free will. Indeed, if he wants humans at all, by our definition, he must give them free will. Desiring the existence of love can be assumed to be a quality in accordance with omnibenevolence, since love is generally accepted as universally good. Therefore, "love" is a rational answer to the question of how one could know that an omnibenevolent God would value free will. Omnibenevolence=values Good. Love is good. Love is dependent on free will. Therefore free will is also good, which means that God would want us to have free will.

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08-01-2003, 09:13 PM	#52
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	LWF, It seems you missed the point. Neither Jamie nor I are arguing that free will doesn't exist, just that it is not relevent to love. That is, you need to find another reason why god would want us to have free will, because the ability to love seems to have nothing to do with free will.

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