Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Athius · 02-24-2003, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by River
The hijab is a symbol of Purity, Chastity and LIBERATION. Although it is not mandatory, it is the preferred exalted mode of life. Many modern feminists are also adopting the hijab. The hijab serves a protective function. It prevents objectification of the women's body. The hijab allows women to have full control over her body. It emphasizes one's inner beauty and worth.

um... it is mandatory in Iran, and guess what, the women and girls are sick of it, sure its purpose is supposedly to protect them and it would be a good thing, but no one wants to be "protected" anymore, they have to sweat like pigs in summer because they're forced to wear layer after layer of covering, god knows how many die of dehydration in the less developed areas, that's not protection, and today we live in the 21st century and the western culture has a great influence in Islamic countries, girls and women want to be more like western females (not saying that's good or bad, just saying that's how it is), the purpose of females in nature is to attract males, Islam goes against human nature just because it seems immoral. The main reason why Islam seems like the most barbaric of the major religions in the world today is because it did not adapt to the modern times, while most other religions swept their mistakes under the rug quietly, Islam is still trying to find a way to resist the new changes in society, a total push toward a true Islamic nation led to a total disaster and failiure (Afghanistan) with people almost wishing they were never born.

River · 02-24-2003, 09:38 PM

-UCE

the barbaric "Islam" that you describe is only a Patriarchal product of society. There are many Hadiths of the Prophet that describes an age where Islam will be corrupted by tyrannical leaders and oppressors. However this "Islamic crash" were to precede an "Islamic rise". The Quran very much stresses the personal religious freedom of individuals....so the fact that women are forced to wear Hijab against their will in Iran and Afghanistan disturbs me. It also disturbs me that Turkey arrests people who voluntarily choose to don the Hijab...from a spiritual perspective It cant really hurt to wear the Hijab....although I do not personally believe that it was mandatory.

Islam is by far, the most Westernized of all religions..The Quran states that all men are created equal which parallels the U.S constitution. Also women were given the right to vote 1400 years ago in Islamic societies. Islam is the only religion in the world that is Pro Science. The Quran states that all life originated from water.

I am not quite sure why logic should lead you away from Islam. You might say Heaven and hell are fairy tale...but it would be a subjective assumption on your part not a logical deduction.. The Quran has 900 verses relating to scientific natural phenomena. It also states that the world was created in 6 eras . The Bible says the world was created in 7 days. The Biblical version of the Flood was Universal. The Quranic narrative details a "regional" flood in harmony with Archaelogy. The Lost city of Uber was found using Quranic narrative.

There are alot of logical scientists that are smarter than both of us who believe in God and Holy Unity...most notably Isaac Newton and Einstein....Holy Unity is the Islamic concept of God. So the fact that logic led you away from Islam, strikes me as rather confusing. A leading Anatomist/embryologist is impressed by the accuracy of the Quran...Here is a link to what he says...

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

Brahma's atheist · 02-25-2003, 02:35 AM

If women don't wear the hijab are they impure, whores etc? This may sound flippant but women are murdered for not wearing hijab or burkas. Are they going to hell for not wearing them?
You can talk forever about equality and misogyny but form what you see in the world Allah doesn't seem to mind the brutality and oppression meted out to one half of his population.
I suppose they will get a better life up in heaven.

MollyMac · 02-25-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

I do not really want to extrapolate upon your Orientalist-skewed materials

A muslim quotes from the Qu'ran and it's the word of Allah. I quote from the same book and it's "orientalist-skewed materials".
Interesting. Thanks for the link, anyway, River. I did have fun � it�s absolutely hilarious!

Let us look at few differences between men and women to understand better:1- Women have a lot more patience and emotions in them than men. This is one of the blessings that Allah Almighty had created in women to enable them to raise children. Men do not have enough patience in them, nor enough loving emotions in them to raise children.
2- Women can easily get frightened. Man can't. It takes a lot to frighten a normal average man.

What can I say but ha ha ha ha ha?

Verse 2:282 provides women strength by virtue of number=power, that means when a women is out numbered by men in judiciary of legal proceeding she has someone from her own gender which can be a support to her by understanding her special needs, her weaknesses, and her strengths "IF" she faces such situation.

Is this for real? It says quite clearly in 2:82 that if a man isn't available you can make do with two women as long as you think they are up to the job. Regardless of whether the woman feels she wants or needs another woman by her side, she has to have one.

This is crap, River. The suggestion that men and women are equal in Islam is crap. As for your "equal but complementary" argument - this is the classic knee-jerk response from any proponent of any ideology that is designed to keep women subservient.

Women - like men - are individuals and each individual has his or her own qualities, weaknesses and strengths. Men telling women what their strengths and weaknesses are and prescribing their roles for them has nothing to do with equality.
Wake up and smell the coffee!

Btw, the link you provided was aimed at tub-thumping Xian missionaries. On a board mainly frequented by free thinkers who are used to thinking for themselves, you'll have to do a lot better.

River · 02-25-2003, 01:02 PM

Hey, when I said women were to have complementary roles , I did not mean ....women=kitchen men= work.

The verse that you brought up has to do with legality....and testimonial...not gender roles...

and we can all agree that not every women can be or will be a Judge Judy....

In fact several Islamic countries have women presidents...i.e Pakistan, Indonesia, and Bangladesh....

sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you should talk to some Islamic feminists and hear their side of the story.

When , you quote the Koran , it should be in context. Unfortunately many Muslims quote the Koran out of context too.

lpetrich · 02-25-2003, 01:07 PM

I wonder where are all the female mullahs, imams, etc.; where are all the Muslim clergywomen?

Non-Fundie Protestants have them, non-Orthodox Jews have them, Hindus have them, lots of "alternative religions" have them, and there are even many female freethinkers.

So what gives?

Magus55 · 02-25-2003, 01:22 PM

Women are worthless in Islam...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Women/place.html

Luiseach · 02-25-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by River
Perhaps you should talk to some Islamic feminists and hear their side of the story.

'Islamic feminists'?!?!

MollyMac · 02-25-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Perhaps you should talk to some Islamic feminists and hear their side of the story.

Oh right, OK. Can you introduce me to one? Perhaps one of your wives?

Jayjay · 02-25-2003, 03:09 PM

I think it's funny to see christians attack muslims as oppressors of women, and then see the muslims defend themselves with exactly the same "equal but created different" arguments that christians use when they are questioned about their own bible verses dealing with subservience of women...

Pot, kettle, black.

02-25-2003, 02:35 AM	#33
Brahma's atheist Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: (not so) United Kingdom Posts: 514	the hijab If women don't wear the hijab are they impure, whores etc? This may sound flippant but women are murdered for not wearing hijab or burkas. Are they going to hell for not wearing them? You can talk forever about equality and misogyny but form what you see in the world Allah doesn't seem to mind the brutality and oppression meted out to one half of his population. I suppose they will get a better life up in heaven.

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02-24-2003, 09:38 PM	#32
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	-UCE the barbaric "Islam" that you describe is only a Patriarchal product of society. There are many Hadiths of the Prophet that describes an age where Islam will be corrupted by tyrannical leaders and oppressors. However this "Islamic crash" were to precede an "Islamic rise". The Quran very much stresses the personal religious freedom of individuals....so the fact that women are forced to wear Hijab against their will in Iran and Afghanistan disturbs me. It also disturbs me that Turkey arrests people who voluntarily choose to don the Hijab...from a spiritual perspective It cant really hurt to wear the Hijab....although I do not personally believe that it was mandatory. Islam is by far, the most Westernized of all religions..The Quran states that all men are created equal which parallels the U.S constitution. Also women were given the right to vote 1400 years ago in Islamic societies. Islam is the only religion in the world that is Pro Science. The Quran states that all life originated from water. I am not quite sure why logic should lead you away from Islam. You might say Heaven and hell are fairy tale...but it would be a subjective assumption on your part not a logical deduction.. The Quran has 900 verses relating to scientific natural phenomena. It also states that the world was created in 6 eras . The Bible says the world was created in 7 days. The Biblical version of the Flood was Universal. The Quranic narrative details a "regional" flood in harmony with Archaelogy. The Lost city of Uber was found using Quranic narrative. There are alot of logical scientists that are smarter than both of us who believe in God and Holy Unity...most notably Isaac Newton and Einstein....Holy Unity is the Islamic concept of God. So the fact that logic led you away from Islam, strikes me as rather confusing. A leading Anatomist/embryologist is impressed by the accuracy of the Quran...Here is a link to what he says... http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

02-25-2003, 01:02 PM	#35
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Hey, when I said women were to have complementary roles , I did not mean ....women=kitchen men= work. The verse that you brought up has to do with legality....and testimonial...not gender roles... and we can all agree that not every women can be or will be a Judge Judy.... In fact several Islamic countries have women presidents...i.e Pakistan, Indonesia, and Bangladesh.... sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you should talk to some Islamic feminists and hear their side of the story. When , you quote the Koran , it should be in context. Unfortunately many Muslims quote the Koran out of context too.

02-25-2003, 01:07 PM	#36
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I wonder where are all the female mullahs, imams, etc.; where are all the Muslim clergywomen? Non-Fundie Protestants have them, non-Orthodox Jews have them, Hindus have them, lots of "alternative religions" have them, and there are even many female freethinkers. So what gives?

02-25-2003, 01:22 PM	#37
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Women are worthless in Islam... http://www.answering-islam.org/Women/place.html

02-25-2003, 03:09 PM	#40
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	I think it's funny to see christians attack muslims as oppressors of women, and then see the muslims defend themselves with exactly the same "equal but created different" arguments that christians use when they are questioned about their own bible verses dealing with subservience of women... Pot, kettle, black.

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