mongrel

Crap. IIRC, Hitler stated in his own book, it was "god's work to kill jews"*.

Stalin killed millions for political reasons- he just happened to be the leader of an organisation which endorsed no belief in fairy tales, and didn't do anything because of atheism**.

And what about god's own genocides, recorded in his own book?

*Paraphrase, on my part.

**He was still a sicko, though, obviously.

Baidarka

Magus 55
I am not wondering why and I am not confused.
But I am saddened by your embrace of the Christian myth in its final anti-Jewish form. I thought that I expressed my reasons in the opening post.
I get a little frustrated when the points that I make in my posts are totally ignored by those who answer me. I would appreciate if you could address some of the issues that I raised to see if any of it means anything to you.
My point is that the anti-semitism in the NT laid the foundation for everything else on my list. Also please note that the Holocaust was not the work of one sick individual. It also was at the end of my list.
“I don't hold it against Christians who choose to persecute us, because they aren't the majority”
I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
I would not say that all Christians are anti-semites but it is clear that much of the NT is.
“Turning against Christianity because Hitler was a sicko and chose to fulfill his own, non-Christian agenda of disposing of God's chosen people is like atheists turning away from atheism because Stalin killed 21 million people.”
Hitler’s mass murder was a fulfillment of Martin Luther’s anti-semitic rages.
Stalin and Hitler can both be seen as Messianic Tyrants (Josephus declared Vespasian the Messiah in order to save his own neck).
According to the founding fathers of the Mormon Church Black people do not have souls. Several years ago God revealed that black people have souls and the doctrine was changed. Would you consider becoming a Mormon if you were black?
The Spanish inquisition was not against Jews it was held against the Conversos who were suspected of backsliding or re-Judaising. Read Hyam Maccoby’s book The Myth of Jewish Evil.
Skepticism is not Vice.
Gullibility is not a Virtue.
Shalom

Metacrock

That is such bigoted horse dung! How dare you compare the life style of my grandmother and her most sacred beliefs to the KKK? Who the hell do you think you are? Martin Luther King was a Christian! that's shows us how little you know about history. I have as much of a right to my tradition and my upbrining as anyone else, without your or any other bigot trying to tell me whta it's about or what its like.




[color=blue]That is so convoluted. You admit that the litteratrue was written by Jews, but they were anti-semetic Jews! Of course it couldn't be that since they were dealing with their own people, they felt at liberty to deal more harshly with them? No that would make too much sense.[/font]





Of course it couldn't be that they really did that could it? Espeicially sense Josephus and every other historican of the day backs it up. Why does it never occur to you or other anti-religious bigots that it was one faction of Jews against another!??? The early chruch was proably heavily influenced by Jewish heterodoxy like that at Qumran (which probably became the Karaites) and their big enemies the phrisees became the Talmudists! That's who they are talking about. It's an in house battle among Jews!







Even the Pharisees were factionalized. But he doesn't have to be one to have ideas in common with them.




O that's rich! So you think Judas comes form Jew because they sound alike? That's Anglo Israel thinking! The British are the 10th lost tribe because "British" sounds like "Barit" the Hewbrew for covenant and "ish" the Hebrew for man. Thus British are "men of the covenant." That's about as logical as your arugment. The word "jew" i from the Greek Iudaioi and Judas is just Judus. Two different words.

Now let's consider your ignorance of history, in the following list:


1) The Crusades

brought to us by European nobels who were interested in money. They even saced Constantinople, which was Christian, because they were not interested in the faith, but in profit. If that's the worst thing they ever did that puts them ahaead of most governments in history.

2) The Blood Libels.

[color=blue]again, not chrisitan. No doctrine, no creed, nothing in the history of the chruch that would support it. It's origins are in pagan Europe. It's just an accident of history that the European nobles inhereted the civic rule of the chruch from Constantine.[/font]

3) Pogroms

Same difference.

4) The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (by David Kertzer)

what? You are reaching for straws here.

5) Ghettos

an outgrowth of their anti-semitism, and unfortunate result of the gentileizing of the chruch. that has nothing to do with the essence of christainity or what the faith is about.

6) Jews expelled from England


by the King, so he wouldn't have to pay them back, after forcing them into the usery business. Not by Christians, not by the doctrines, not by the natrue of the faith, but by one guy with state power.

7) Jews expelled from Spain



You really believe in multiplying examples don't you? Yea we know that "Christian Europe" had a problem with anti-semitism. That's well known, no reason to drag that through the mud. There were chruches in Africa, and Asia, Eastern Europe, ethiopia, India, Turkey, ect ect who never did any of this. the average christian never even met a Jew in most cases throughout their lives. This was a cultural phenomenon that had to do with the nobles of Western Europe and some low land and Germanic countires like Austria where, for a time in the middle ages, the anti-semitism was rife.

Have you ever thought of reading about the testimony of arabic Jews regarding the way they have been treated in arab countires? They too were oppresseed and suffered throughout these 2000 years, and that was Moslems and not Christians. Unfortunately the human race as a whole is pleagued with bigotry, as your post demonstates, but not the way you want it to.

8) The Inquisition (The Jews of Spain by Jane Gerber)
9) The Holocaust


And of course you say nothing about the reightous gentiles like Shindler. Yea, right, the guy with the list, he was a Christian and he kept his list becasue of this faith! Also the Christians at Lo Chambo, some of whom died hidding Jews. And the King of Holland and Dutch Christians like Correy TinBoone some of whom died. she was in a camp for her part in hiding Jews. What about the confessing chruch led by Detrich Bonehoeffer? You don't mention them. They don't get to be christians. That's the biggest crime you committ against the memory of these brave people. You rob them of their most sacred conviction by insisting that they can't represent their tradition, only those who are universally despized can represent the faith you despize.

Who says you get to decide whose a "real christian" and who isn't?

Link Fixed

Is the Bible The Word of God?

Metacrock

Not because you show "bad things they've done." Because he says that being a christian is like being in the KKK. Yea that's not hatred is it? It's perfectly fine to be compared to the KKK. No one should mind that should they? Now why can't you see see how that would be offenseive? Are you in the KKK? Does that sound normal to you?

It's also guilt by association, still an informal fallacy.


Is the bible The Word of God?

Gurdur

Woooo !
Now there's a blast from the past !


But I really recomend more calm and tranquillity in posting;
imitating fulminant volcanos may be fun, but such pyrotechnics have backblast.

Jack the Bodiless

The Crusades COST money. A LOT of it. Richard taxed the English to the hilt and virtually bankrupted the country. Sure, individual crusaders grabbed plunder whenever they could, but the motive for staging the Crusades was not financial. And the only organization that became wealthy through the Crusades (by charging passage for crusaders on their ships) was the Christian Knights Templar.

And why mention Schindler and other virtuous people who happened to be Christian, while apparently denying that those who expelled the Jews from England and Spain were also Christian? Double standard?

keyser_soze

A true feeling for the english(majority) view on jews can be found in the late 1800's book of ivanhoe. Here they are thought of as a subspecies. And one has to think that this view is toned down from what it probably was back in the earlier centuries. Excellent book, but a tragically poor outlook on one's fellow man. Shame shame.

Baidarka

Metacrock

I enjoy a good barbeque as much as the next fellow and I would defend my right and the right of my ancestors to eat delicious animals but if pigs, chickens, and cows are horrified by this pleasure of mine I would not call them bigoted.
My original post was addressed to Magus 55 who seems to use every opportunity to remind us of his Jewish origins. I am saddened by adults who live in the demon haunted fairy tale world of fundamentalist religion but I am particularly saddened by Jewish converts to mystical anti-Judaism.

“Martin Luther King was a Christian!”

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
not Martin Luther King

“I have as much of a right to my tradition and my upbrining as anyone else, without your or any other bigot trying to tell me whta it's about or what its like. “

You most certainly do but please don’t fault the chickens who object to being fried.

“That is so convoluted. You admit that the litteratrue was written by Jews, but they were anti-semetic Jews! Of course it couldn't be that since they were dealing with their own people, they felt at liberty to deal more harshly with them? No that would make”


I don’t think that there is anything convoluted here. Some of the underlying NT texts seem to be Jewish in origin but they also appear to have been overwritten by Greek and Roman hands but no matter how the most vicious NT passages got into the NT they are there, they are highly offensive and they have been used to justify crimes against the Jewish People for the past 2000 years.

“Of course it couldn't be that they really did that could it? Espeicially sense Josephus and every other historican of the day backs it up. Why does it never occur to you or other anti-religious bigots that it was one faction of Jews against another!??? The early chruch was proably heavily influenced by Jewish heterodoxy like that at Qumran (which probably became the Karaites) and their big enemies the phrisees became the Talmudists! That's who they are talking about. It's an in house battle among Jews!”

So your position is that a private battle between Jewish sects has been recorded in the NT and has been mistaken for anti-Judaism and has caused 2000 years of violence. Your Position is that Jews concocted the Myth of Jewish Deicide as part of an internal debate! This in a holy text inspired by the Lord God!
Where is it that Josephus has a blood thirsty Jewish crowd scream for Jesus’ blood?
Where is it that Josephus has a Jewish crowd calling guilt upon themselves and upon their children?
Where is it in Josephus that a Jewish crowd gets to Choose between Jesus bar Joseph and Jesus Bar Abbas (Jesus son of the father, a very dubious and enigmatic name)?
What other historians back up any of this?


“Even the Pharisees were factionalized. But he doesn't have to be one to have ideas in common with them.”

True but there is almost nothing in Jesus’ words that would be in variance with Pharisee doctrine and certainly nothing in his words to merit a charge of Blasphemy.

“O that's rich! So you think Judas comes form Jew because they sound alike? That's Anglo Israel thinking! The British are the 10th lost tribe because "British" sounds like "Barit" the Hewbrew for covenant and "ish" the Hebrew for man. Thus British are "men of the covenant." That's about as logical as your arugment. The word "jew" i from the Greek Iudaioi and Judas is just Judus. Two different words. “

If Judas’ betrayal of Jesus is a late fictionalized addition to the story (in fiction names are often symbolic) than Judas’ name becomes quite important. Since acts records that the 12 met after the crucifixion, and there are 2 versions of Judas’ death it seems that the Judas story must be a late addition and is probably a myth.

“1) The Crusades

brought to us by European nobels who were interested in money. They even saced Constantinople, which was Christian, because they were not interested in the faith, but in profit. If that's the worst thing they ever did that puts them ahaead of most governments in history. “

The Church was very deeply involved in the Crusades. You apologetic is quite pathetic.




”2) The Blood Libels.

again, not chrisitan. No doctrine, no creed, nothing in the history of the chruch that would support it. It's origins are in pagan Europe. It's just an accident of history that the European nobles inhereted the civic rule of the chruch from Constantine.[/font] “

The Lie that Jews were using the blood of Christian children to make their matzos and that Jews were engaging in secret ceremonies in which they tortured Jesus by desecrating communion wafers was started and spread by the Church right into the 20th century.

”3) Pogroms

[color=blue]Same difference.”

The Pogroms were a direct consequence of the Christian doctrine of Jewish evil.


“4) The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (by David Kertzer)

what? You are reaching for straws here.”

Edgardo was kidnapped, held and brainwashed by the Church. This is a crime that was justified by the highest levels of the Church. How is this reaching at straws?

”5) Ghettos

an outgrowth of their anti-semitism, and unfortunate result of the gentileizing of the chruch. that has nothing to do with the essence of christainity or what the faith is about.”

Anti-semitism as a result of Chuch doctrine

”6) Jews expelled from England


by the King, so he wouldn't have to pay them back, after forcing them into the usery business. Not by Christians, not by the doctrines, not by the natrue of the faith, but by one guy with state power. “

A blood libel was used as the excuse.

”7) Jews expelled from Spain

You really believe in multiplying examples don't you? Yea we know that "Christian Europe" had a problem with anti-semitism. That's well known, no reason to drag that through the mud. There were chruches in Africa, and Asia, Eastern Europe, ethiopia, India, Turkey, ect ect who never did any of this. the average christian never even met a Jew in most cases throughout their lives. This was a cultural phenomenon that had to do with the nobles of Western Europe and some low land and Germanic countires like Austria where, for a time in the middle ages, the anti-semitism was rife.

Have you ever thought of reading about the testimony of arabic Jews regarding the way they have been treated in arab countires? They too were oppresseed and suffered throughout these 2000 years, and that was Moslems and not Christians. Unfortunately the human race as a whole is pleagued with bigotry, as your post demonstates, but not the way you want it to. “

Some Christians were not bad. Some Moslems were also bad. Some Christians never met a Jew. What the hell are you talking about and how does this justify anything?

8) The Inquisition (The Jews of Spain by Jane Gerber)
9) The Holocaust


”And of course you say nothing about the reightous gentiles like Shindler. Yea, right, the guy with the list, he was a Christian and he kept his list becasue of this faith! Also the Christians at Lo Chambo, some of whom died hidding Jews. And the King of Holland and Dutch Christians like Correy TinBoone some of whom died. she was in a camp for her part in hiding Jews. What about the confessing chruch led by Detrich Bonehoeffer? You don't mention them. They don't get to be christians. That's the biggest crime you committ against the memory of these brave people. You rob them of their most sacred conviction by insisting that they can't represent their tradition, only those who are universally despized can represent the faith you despize.

Who says you get to decide whose a "real Christian" and who isn't?”

As I remember Shindler was not particularly religious. I am aware that there were and are good Christians and I do not wish to denigrate their humanity this does not change my position that the NT contains some very horrible and damaging anti-semitic passages.

Baidarka

Excerpt from
On the Jews and Their Lies (1543)

By
Martin Luther (1483 - 1546
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now, but that we have now given them their due reward.
Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. For they use all of these books to blaspheme the Son of God, that is, God the Father himself, Creator of heaven and earth, as was said above; and they will never use them differently.
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. The reason for this prohibition is that their praise, thanks, prayer, and doctrine are sheer blasphemy, cursing, and idolatry, because their heart and mouth call God the Father Hebel Vorik as they call his Son, our Lord Jesus, this. For as they name and honor the Son, thus they also name and honor the Father. It does not help them to use many fine words and to make much ado about the name of God. For we read, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" [Exod. 20:7]. Just as little did it avail their ancestors at the time of the kings of Israel that they bore God’s name, yet called him Baal.
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it, because their blasphemous and accursed mouth and heart call God’s Son Hebel Vorik, and thus also call his Father that. He cannot and will not interpret this otherwise, just as we Christians too cannot interpret it otherwise, we who believe that however the Son is named and honored thus also the Father is named and honored. Therefore we must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing. He who hears this name-from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away. And may no one be merciful and kind in this regard, for God’s honor and the salvation of us all, including that of the Jews, are at stake!

Godless Dave

Hitler didn't make up anti-Semitism, he exploited it. Christians in Europe have been persecuting Jews as long as there have been Jews in Europe. At the time, Jews were second-class citizens in the Islamic world but they were treated better there than in Christendom. They had fewer rights and paid more taxes than Muslims, but generally they weren't robbed, tortured, or burned at the stake.

And I would like to point out that the KKK is a Christian organization that hates Jews as much as they hate blacks and Catholics. Until the early 60s they held their meetings in churches.